Het aantal mensen dat/die?

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luvdutch
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Het aantal mensen dat/die?

Post by luvdutch » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:37 pm

Hello ,

Can anyone help with this question please. thank you. :)

"Het aantal mensen___in NL___,_____ nog steeds toe."

1, Het aantal mensen dat in NL woont, neemt nog steeds toe.
2, Het aantal mensen die in NL wonen, neemt nog steeds toe.

ok, i wrote the second sentence because i thought that the 'die' is for reflecting the word 'mensen' same like the attributive clause in English: the number of people who live in NL.

but it appears that it is not this case? how to understand this better. thank you!


luvdutch
Last edited by luvdutch on Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die?

Post by Bert » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:39 pm

Het aantal mensen dat in NL woont, neemt nog steeds toe.
Achtergrond: https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/advies/e ... onen-woont
"Het aantal mensen dat hier woont, is verdubbeld; in deze zin staat het groeiende aantal van de inwoners centraal."

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die?

Post by luvdutch » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:46 pm

Bert wrote:Het aantal mensen dat in NL woont, neemt nog steeds toe.
Achtergrond: https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/advies/e ... onen-woont
"Het aantal mensen dat hier woont, is verdubbeld; in deze zin staat het groeiende aantal van de inwoners centraal."
wow, thanks Bert! The link you provided helps quite a bit however It is hard to think that in this sentence 'mensen' is related to 'woont' because 'aantal' can not 'woont'. even if 'mensen' is indeed related to 'woont'. why is it not in its plural form (mensen wonen) ? :?

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die?

Post by ngonyama » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:36 pm

Actually I agree with luvdutch. I think it should be:

het aantal mensen die in Nederland wonen, neemt nog altijd toe

"..die in Nederland wonen.." refers to mensen not to aantal.

Het aantal neemt toe
De mensen wonen.

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die?

Post by BrutallyFrank » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:31 pm

I guess this is one of those cases which spark a lot of discussion ... but I don't think that this is only a Dutch issue.
"Moenie worrie nie, alles sal reg kom" (maar hy het nie gesê wanneer nie!)

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die?

Post by luvdutch » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:42 am

ngonyama wrote:Actually I agree with luvdutch. I think it should be:

het aantal mensen die in Nederland wonen, neemt nog altijd toe

"..die in Nederland wonen.." refers to mensen not to aantal.

Het aantal neemt toe
De mensen wonen.
Hehehe, hmm, shake hands.

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die? ( New Update )

Post by luvdutch » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:28 am

the correct form of this sentence is indeed het aantal mensen dat in NL woont

then yes, i have discovered the following sentence:

'Een andere, grote groep kinderen gaat na de basisschool naar een technische school.'

ok, so no matter what the verb is attached to, the singular form is used in dutch grammar.

so, aantal woont ( in fact: mensen wonen)
groep gaat (in fact: kinderen gaan)

but the verb is in its singular form but it refers to the noun that is not directly related to it.

I hope this helps.


:-D

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die? ( New Update )

Post by Crecker » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:33 pm

luvdutch wrote:the correct form of this sentence is indeed het aantal mensen dat in NL woont

then yes, i have discovered the following sentence:

'Een andere, grote groep kinderen gaat na de basisschool naar een technische school.'

ok, so no matter what the verb is attached to, the singular form is used in dutch grammar.

so, aantal woont ( in fact: mensen wonen)
groep gaat (in fact: kinderen gaan)

but the verb is in its singular form but it refers to the noun that is not directly related to it.

I hope this helps.


:-D
Sorry for my intrusion, I think that in your example the verb 'gaan' refers to 'groep' and not to 'kinderen', therefore 'gaat'.
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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die? ( New Update )

Post by luvdutch » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:34 am

Crecker wrote:
luvdutch wrote:the correct form of this sentence is indeed het aantal mensen dat in NL woont

then yes, i have discovered the following sentence:

'Een andere, grote groep kinderen gaat na de basisschool naar een technische school.'

ok, so no matter what the verb is attached to, the singular form is used in dutch grammar.

so, aantal woont ( in fact: mensen wonen)
groep gaat (in fact: kinderen gaan)

but the verb is in its singular form but it refers to the noun that is not directly related to it.

I hope this helps.


:-D
Sorry for my intrusion, I think that in your example the verb 'gaan' refers to 'groep' and not to 'kinderen', therefore 'gaat'.
yes, that's what i explained in the text! groep is a 'singular' form of noun, kinderen is a 'plural'. in that case the 'gaat' is used with ' groep'!

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die? ( New Update )

Post by Crecker » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:00 am

luvdutch wrote:
Crecker wrote:
luvdutch wrote:the correct form of this sentence is indeed het aantal mensen dat in NL woont

then yes, i have discovered the following sentence:

'Een andere, grote groep kinderen gaat na de basisschool naar een technische school.'

ok, so no matter what the verb is attached to, the singular form is used in dutch grammar.

so, aantal woont ( in fact: mensen wonen)
groep gaat (in fact: kinderen gaan)

but the verb is in its singular form but it refers to the noun that is not directly related to it.

I hope this helps.


:-D
Sorry for my intrusion, I think that in your example the verb 'gaan' refers to 'groep' and not to 'kinderen', therefore 'gaat'.
yes, that's what i explained in the text! groep is a 'singular' form of noun, kinderen is a 'plural'. in that case the 'gaat' is used with ' groep'!
I'm sorry! I must have mistaken because you underlined the words 'kinderen gaat'. Now I see what you meant.
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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die? ( New Update )

Post by luvdutch » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:01 pm

Crecker wrote:
luvdutch wrote:
Crecker wrote:
luvdutch wrote:the correct form of this sentence is indeed het aantal mensen dat in NL woont

then yes, i have discovered the following sentence:

'Een andere, grote groep kinderen gaat na de basisschool naar een technische school.'

ok, so no matter what the verb is attached to, the singular form is used in dutch grammar.

so, aantal woont ( in fact: mensen wonen)
groep gaat (in fact: kinderen gaan)

but the verb is in its singular form but it refers to the noun that is not directly related to it.

I hope this helps.


:-D
Sorry for my intrusion, I think that in your example the verb 'gaan' refers to 'groep' and not to 'kinderen', therefore 'gaat'.
yes, that's what i explained in the text! groep is a 'singular' form of noun, kinderen is a 'plural'. in that case the 'gaat' is used with ' groep'!
I'm sorry! I must have mistaken because you underlined the words 'kinderen gaat'. Now I see what you meant.
ah, nevermind. hehe. :-D

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Re: Het aantal mensen dat/die?

Post by tom3my » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:50 pm

I don`t think this is a difficult issue.

https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/advies/e ... onen-woont
http://www.taalwinkel.nl/spelling-en-gr ... soonsvorm/

look at these links for more examples and explanation.

Just look at the whole subject and think about what gets more stress.

Een grote groep kinderen die allemaal slecht eten. so here children are more central. cause they all eat badly.
een grote groep kinderen dat slecht presteert. here the group is more central. cause the group performs badly.

for thinking if wonen is connecting to het aantal in:

Het aantal mensen dat in NL woont, neemt nog steeds toe.

Is not correct. always look at the whole subject.
The whole subject relates to the verb. But determine if it is used in the singular or plural depends on which part is central.
in this case "mensen" or "het aantal", but the whole subject stays "het aantal mensen"

Bijvoorbeeld:
Het aantal vissen dat in Nederland woont, neemt toe.
Het aantal vissen dat in Nederland is, neemt toe.

Which one is correct?
yes the second one. So even you think woont is connected to aantal again. Here it cannot, right?
So always look at the whole subject as one to determine what kinda verb you can use.
But if it is singular or plural, then look at which part of the whole subject gets more stress.

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