How to switch from English structure?

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Burgsch
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How to switch from English structure?

Post by Burgsch » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:04 am

Hello,

I've been learning Dutch for some time and I often get confused a bit.

###########################
1. How to enforce your thinking about making a verb on the end of sentence? I often see it - I know in the past time it is a must.

I walked to the shop | Ik liep (ging) naar de winkel.
I have walked to the shop | Ik heb naar de winkel gelopen.

As we see in the past simple verb is like in English. On the second position.
In the advanced past time the verb goes on the end - for me English learner there is no logic in this but I accept it is the rule.
Is it big error when instead of saying:

Ik heb naar de winkel gelopen.
I would say:
Ik heb gelopen naar de winkel.

When I say long sentence in the "advanced past time" sometimes I can get ridiculous feeling what I am saying at the moment because of this verb on the end.

###########################
2. Can I leave "I", "you" ect in the sentences where it is known about what person it is about?

I was on the vacations. Been visiting a lot of places |Ik was op de vacantie. Heb vele plaatsen gezien
I was on the vacations. Visited a lot of places |Ik was op de vacantie. Zag vele plaatsen OR Ik zag vele plaatsen.

I both examples we know from the context it is about me. In English I often say this way.

###########################
3. Sometimes there is inversion made even if the sentence is not the a question. I think after such words as "maar", "omdat" ect. Examples:

Ik ben thuis maar ben ik bezig
or
Ik ben thuis maar ik ben bezig.

Regarding (let's call it inversion) in sentences being not the questions I read there is rule - verb on the second position.
So if sentence begins with example time, the verb is next.

Om 3 uur ga ik naar huis NOT Om 3 uur ik ga naar huis.
At 3 o'clock I go to home.
I go to home at 3 o'clock.
To home I go at 3 o'clock (a'la Yoda :D)

More less they are correct forms - at least being understandable.
How is it called in Dutch? I often see long complex sentences where there is weird word order.

Dolo
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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by Dolo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:22 pm

Siema Burgsch!

I reckon that there is no other way than working hard and learning the language. I've been studying Dutch for more than a year and had problems with the word order (I still do, actually) but the more I learn, read, and use the language the easier and more natural it gets. However, I don't think that saying "Ik heb gelopen naar de winkel" would be a big mistake, you would definitely be understood.
As regards point 2, I am not so sure, but juding from the example: Ik wil graag beginnen in Thailand, maar een ander land zou ook goed kunnen, the person (who is a native speaker) does not put "ik" before or after "zou", so apparently you can do such a thing.
Regarding point 3: In Dutch you always put an inversion after any adverbials and basically always when the sentence does not start with the person: Therefore:
'Zweden? Daar heb ik geweest"
"Om 3 uur ga ik naar huis"
"Wat? Dat heb ik niet gehoord"

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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by ngonyama » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:03 pm

Burgsch wrote:Hello,

I've been learning Dutch for some time and I often get confused a bit.

###########################
1. How to enforce your thinking about making a verb on the end of sentence? I often see it - I know in the past time it is a must. No in anything except the present and the past tense, i.e. anything that requires more than one verb.

I walked to the shop | Ik liep (ging) naar de winkel.
I have walked to the shop | Ik heb naar de winkel gelopen. The order is right but the auxiliary is not. Lopen is a verb of motion, when used with a direction "naar de winkel" it takes ''zijn'': Ik BEN naar de winkel gelopen

As we see in the past simple verb is like in English. On the second position.
In the advanced past time present perfect tense the verb goes on the end - for me English learner there is no logic in this but I accept it is the rule.
Is it big error when instead of saying:

Ik heb naar de winkel gelopen.
I would say:
Ik heb gelopen naar de winkel. You CAN say "Ik ben gelopen naar de winkel" but it puts an awful lot of stress on the verb: "Ik ben geLÓpen naar de winkel, niet geFÍÉtst. Usually if a non-standard order is used that is done to put a lot of emphasis on something.

When I say long sentence in the "advanced past time" please drop this term: it is really wrong. This is NOT a past tense, but a statement in the present about the walking being is complete sometimes I can get ridiculous feeling what I am saying at the moment because of this verb on the end.

###########################
2. Can I leave "I", "you" ect in the sentences where it is known about what person it is about?

I was on the vacations. Been visiting a lot of places |Ik was op de vakantie. Heb vele plaatsen gezien Yes , people sometimes do that, but usually only in colloquial spoken language, not written language.
I was on the vacations. Visited a lot of places |Ik was op de vacantie. Zag vele plaatsen OR Ik zag vele plaatsen. Ik heb veel plaatsen gezien.

I both examples we know from the context it is about me. In English I often say this way.

###########################
3. Sometimes there is inversion made even if the sentence is not the a question. I think after such words as "maar", "omdat" ect. Examples:
You are confusing two issues here: inversion and dependent clauses.
Ik ben thuis maar ben ik bezig
or
Ik ben thuis maar ik ben bezig. This is correct: after "en", "maar", "want" and a few more you just get the same order as in the first sentence. That is NOT true for "omdat" and most other conjunctions After those all of the verb moves to the end:

Ik ben thuis omdat ik bezig BEN

This has nothing to do with inversion.


Regarding (let's call it inversion) in sentences being not the questions I read there is rule - verb on the second position.
So if sentence begins with example time, the verb is next.

Om 3 uur ga ik naar huis NOT Om 3 uur ik ga naar huis.
That is correct and yes this is inversion. It happens either in questions or if something is move to the front for the sake of emphasis
At 3 o'clock I go to home.
I go to home at 3 o'clock.
To home I go at 3 o'clock (a'la Yoda :D)

More less they are correct forms - at least being understandable.
How is it called in Dutch? I often see long complex sentences where there is weird word order.
Dutch word order is indeed not simple, although it is pretty systematic. It is just that the system is pretty complicated. This link might help:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch/Lesson_21

Burgsch
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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by Burgsch » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:01 pm

Thanks guys for help.
I have to switch from English thinking and language habits to the Dutch ones but it is not so easy.

I've been student in ROC Rivor school for half year. I have started at A0 level (Stap 1 red book), now my teacher says it'd good for me to start Opmaat (blue book) and in free time do the green one called De Sprong as I made faster progress than my friends. To learn words I use Memrise flashcards. I learned 1500-1800 words (from 6000 most used according to the encyclopedia). I do 20 mins per day and my average percent of repetition is 70-80% correct answers per 100 words I review every day.
Unfortunately I am single, live on my own in small village. Have nobody to talk to in this language - I avoid using it in supermarkets (like Lidl) because there is a lot I do not understand and it would be awkward seeing people staring at me :D
I have much better results in synthetic tests than speaking "on air" as I quickly get stressed, when I do I have problems even in English.

I notice I put more 'n more Dutch words when I speak English. Perhaps my brain switches automatically to Dutch words when speaking sentence.

I asked about the things in my previous post as I do it on my own. My teacher has not reached this yet. 8)

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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by ngonyama » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:55 pm

Switching will require some courage. Look at kids: they just start using this new word they heard without even really knowing what it means. If people laugh they know they had it wrong, so they try to use if differently next time. They are not deterred by making mistakes. It is how they learn. I can be so jealous: we grown ups have far too much pride in the way. We get ashamed. :o

So, show some guts and do try some Dutch in the supermarket. Try to find some people there who are sympathetic to what you are trying to achieve with that. Ask them to help you say a phrase correctly. Just one short phrase at the time. Some will, some won't. Actually people who have learned another language themselves might understand better what you are trying to do. Another trick is to use the mirror: imagine what you are going to say and speak to yourself in front of a mirror. Then go shopping.

Children also always learn in context. The context of where they are, who they talk to, what the story is. But also the context of the sentence, both in grammar and in syntax etc. Memrise, quizlet, duolinguo etc are wonderful, but they don't really give you that: context. They just do vocabulary.

Actually that is why I started to incorporate quizlet sets into my wikibook, I give a conversation, story, poem, song, whatever and then create a quizlet set to go with it, so people can use both and get the context and the vocabulary. I must be honest and add that I don't know if that is any help, because I get little feedback on it.

Burgsch
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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by Burgsch » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:52 am

When I worked I had chance to speak with Dutch people or people who learn Dutch too.
Now I am unemployment (these weird work phases A,B,C) so I am totally out however this free time I use to get deeper inside grammar (inversion proper word order ect).
When I was not stressed, nervous I was able to make quite nice conversation with another worker. Surprisingly I understood her well and she me too. That was really nice, +10 to self level :D
ngonyama wrote: Children also always learn in context. The context of where they are, who they talk to, what the story is. But also the context of the sentence, both in grammar and in syntax etc. Memrise, quizlet, duolinguo etc are wonderful, but they don't really give you that: context. They just do vocabulary.
Yes I agree Duolingo, Memrise it is just vocabulary - but you have to get basics to have opportunity make a conversation. It is important to know what is what called and speak about it even with grammar errors.
I was always focused on grammar, but this time I changed my approach - more words to build brain database and then use it according to context - and for this context I try to read newspaper. It is quite hard must say.
Actually that is why I started to incorporate quizlet sets into my wikibook, I give a conversation, story, poem, song, whatever and then create a quizlet set to go with it, so people can use both and get the context and the vocabulary. I must be honest and add that I don't know if that is any help, because I get little feedback on it.
I just picked up the first test, quizlet I had seen https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch/Quiz/Cycle1#nogo and got result of 15\20.
I completely failed question 14\15. Some others too but it is typo like error.
I found an interesting question:
I don't understand you, can you speak a more slowly? - Ik ▼ u niet, kunt u wat ▼ praten?
I answered:
I don't understand you, can you speak a more slowly? - Ik BEGRIJP u niet, kunt u wat LANGZAMER praten?
Can't get it why according to quiz I should write "versta" instead of "begrijp".
I guess that is THE context you mentioned 8)

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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by ngonyama » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:58 am

Yes, in a sense it is, but Dutch is tricky on that point. Begrijpen and verstaan both translate into "understand" in English, but they are not synonyms:

:Ik versta niet wat hij zegt -- Either the language he uses is unclear (Mongolian e.g.) or there is too much noise to decode the language.
:Ik begrijp niet wat hij zegt -- I understand the language but what he says does not make sense. E.g. because he is talking about complex algebra.


So one refers to language, the other to a mental/thinking process.

:Ik heb verstaan wat hij zei: hij zei :get lost. Maar begrijp niet waarom hij dat zei.


Sorry if that was not clear. I'll review the lesson. Thanks for the feedback

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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by ngonyama » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:09 am


Burgsch
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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by Burgsch » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:08 pm

I just reviewed lesson 2. I don't wanna bother but again I found the context does mean :D

First it was verstaan\begrijpen, now slechts\alleen. I wrote "alleen" as "only". Website points I should have "slechts" instead. Can't pinpoint exact loc 'cos in that moment my browser crashed.
From my flashcards on Memrise I have learned "slechts" can be translated as "barely".
Going deeper.

In Lesson 2 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch/Lesson_2theme there is something wrong with the script or whatever.
On the bottom you have spoilers with exercises but when you click on panel you see only two links but there are four panels.
You click on:

YOUR TURN - UW BEURT!! • Lesson 2 • Additional vocabulary (12 terms)
then below you see:
SOLUTION • Dutch/Lesson 2 • Additional vocabulary (12 terms)

However there is nothing there (under solution).

I like Quizlet and this website too: http://dutch.tolearnfree.com/ as it treats various things and you have to type, change word order, choose ect.
Design of this website seems to be 1990 era though. Pain in the a**.

ngonyama
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Re: How to switch from English structure?

Post by ngonyama » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:09 am

Burgsch wrote:I just reviewed lesson 2. I don't wanna bother but again I found the context does mean :D

First it was verstaan\begrijpen, now slechts\alleen. I wrote "alleen" as "only". Website points I should have "slechts" instead. Can't pinpoint exact loc 'cos in that moment my browser crashed.
From my flashcards on Memrise I have learned "slechts" can be translated as "barely". Barely is more "nauwelijks" than slechts, usually 'slechts' just means 'only'. The point here is that "alleen" really means "alone", not "only", although there is a strong tendency nowadays to abuse the word in that sense. I don't think you as a learner should do that too. It is certainly not accepted by all. (Yet?). Slechts is a bit more formal I do admit. Colloquially people often use "maar": ik heb maar twee euro.
Going deeper.

In Lesson 2 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch/Lesson_2theme there is something wrong with the script or whatever.
On the bottom you have spoilers with exercises but when you click on panel you see only two links but there are four panels.
You click on:

YOUR TURN - UW BEURT!! • Lesson 2 • Additional vocabulary (12 terms)
then below you see:
SOLUTION • Dutch/Lesson 2 • Additional vocabulary (12 terms)

However there is nothing there (under solution).
No you are right. I probably should make a template without the 'solution' pop up for such cases, because there isn't really a 'solution' in this case. Thanks,


I like Quizlet and this website too: http://dutch.tolearnfree.com/ as it treats various things and you have to type, change word order, choose ect.
Design of this website seems to be 1990 era though. Pain in the a**.
Don't know that one, but I'll check it out.

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