Questions DM book 1, 2 ( closed )

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ngonyama
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Re: Questions from Book 2-----------( ! )

Post by ngonyama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:37 am

luvdutch wrote:thanks ngonyama, moving on.

This text is about schools and education.

1, In mijn land kiest een kind pas op z'n 14de. ---Hierover verandert men in Nederland om tien jaar van inzicht. Tot voor kort kregen alle leerlingen in de eerste jaren van het voortgezet onderwijs dezelfde vakken. Maar dat blijkt niet te werken. Voor de één is alles te makkelijk,voor de ander te moeilijk. _______________(question: why not say" hierover verandert men in Nederland de inzicht van de tien jaar". so what are 'om' and 'van' here used for?
"om de tien jaar" means "every ten years" "with a regularity of ten years". The verb "veranderen" is not used as a transitive verb with a direct object here, because it is the people ("men") who change. They change with respect to their insights. The verb is ergative here. So in the perfect it would read: men is van inzicht veranderd.

________________What is 'tot voor kort'?_____________
It means "until recently, until a short time ago"


What does 'voor de één/ander' stand for? Is it for 'one group of students' and 'other group of students'? )
yes, or more specifically for one individual student as opposed to another
2, Maar je hoort steeds meer klachten van de universiteit: het beginniveau van de studenten is om te huilen. Misschien dat ze op termijn toch toestemming krijgen om selectie toe te passen.________(question: Does the first underlined part mean that the beginning level of the university is so hard that people find it so difficult that they cry?
no, that the level of knowledge of the students when they start is so bad that it would make you cry.

___________What does the second sentence mean? especiall what is 'op termijn'? why they get permission to apply selection? who are 'they'?)
op termijn means eventually, at some point in the future. The "they", I suppose, would be the university authorities, but the text is not very clear on this point.

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by luvdutch » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:23 am

Hi ngonyama, it's been so long time. how are you? I was actually busy with reviewing all the old texts and 'chewing' them well. I was rushing to get ahead with book 2 but i think it is better to make the base(book 1) firmer. Anyway, here is a question from book 1 when i was reviewing it.

-----------Mijn ouders hebben drie kinderen: Jan, Wim en Marlies. Jan is hun oudste kind en Marlies hun jongste. Ik ben Wim. Ik ben dus jonger dan Jan, maar ouder dan Marlies. Ik heb maar één zus. Ik had liever meer zussen gehad.
Mijn vader had het liefst alleen dochters gehad
.-----------


I know that the grammar here is about form like ' groot groter grootst'. but the question comes from the underlined part. in English we may say " i preferred to have more sisters. my father preferred to have only daughters." OR " I would prefer to have more sisters......"

i don't see the point of saying" i had preferred to have more sisters " because there is no indication in the sentence to use such "had + done something".

so why the sentence above uses the 'had + gehad' form?

Ik had liever meer zussen gehad ----> this person know he has a sister called Marlies. and prefer to have more sisters. so this sentence logically should be ' ik liever meer zussen hebben.'
Mijn vader had het liefst alleen dochters gehad-------> this person as the father wished he only had daughters. so this sentence logically should be ' Mijn vader had het liefst alleen dochters.'

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

There is a blank left to fill as follows.

-------Waar zullen we ____gaan? --------

should this word be 'naar' or 'naartoe'? Can it be 'heen'?



thanks :)

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by ngonyama » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:50 pm

luvdutch wrote:Hi ngonyama, it's been so long time. how are you? I was actually busy with reviewing all the old texts and 'chewing' them well. I was rushing to get ahead with book 2 but i think it is better to make the base(book 1) firmer. Anyway, here is a question from book 1 when i was reviewing it.

-----------Mijn ouders hebben drie kinderen: Jan, Wim en Marlies. Jan is hun oudste kind en Marlies hun jongste. Ik ben Wim. Ik ben dus jonger dan Jan, maar ouder dan Marlies. Ik heb maar één zus. Ik had liever meer zussen gehad.
Mijn vader had het liefst alleen dochters gehad
.-----------


I know that the grammar here is about form like ' groot groter grootst'. but the question comes from the underlined part. in English we may say " i preferred to have more sisters. my father preferred to have only daughters." OR " I would prefer to have more sisters......"

i don't see the point of saying" i had preferred to have more sisters " because there is no indication in the sentence to use such "had + done something".

so why the sentence above uses the 'had + gehad' form?

It is a leftover from the days that Dutch had a past subjunctive "ik hadde - gij haddet - hij hadde etc." Those days are long gone although you might see this usage (artificially!) in 19th century literature. It had been dead by centuries even then. The forms of the past subjunctive have been replaced by the indicative and much of its usage has been replaced by the conditional (or past future): ik zou liever ... gehad willen hebben. But the old usage is shorter and so you will still see an indicative used as a subjunctive:

ik had liever gehad = ik zou liever gehad hebben.

Sometimes you'll even see a wish (or command) expressed this way

Had maar iets gezegd! -- (I only wish that) you would have sad somthing!
Was toch gekomen -- If only you would have come.

In the 19th century that would still have been written (but probably not said!):
Ware toch gekomen!

This is often called the imperative of the pluperfect but it really harks back to the ancient subjunctive.

As in all Indoeuropean languages the subjunctive used to express things like wishes, doubt or conditionality.






Ik had liever meer zussen gehad ----> this person know he has a sister called Marlies. and prefer to have more sisters. so this sentence logically should be ' ik liever meer zussen hebben.'
Mijn vader had het liefst alleen dochters gehad-------> this person as the father wished he only had daughters. so this sentence logically should be ' Mijn vader had het liefst alleen dochters.'

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

There is a blank left to fill as follows.

-------Waar zullen we ____gaan? --------

should this word be 'naar' or 'naartoe'? Can it be 'heen'?


Waar zullen we naartoe gaan?
Waar zullen heen gaan?

But not Waar zullen we heengaan. That is morbid. :cry:

With motion use the adverb "naartoe". If it is a static direction it can be "naar":

Waar kijk je naar?





thanks :)

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by Dolo » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:26 pm

ngonyama wrote: ik had liever gehad = ik zou liever gehad hebben.
So, how do you translate it? "I would have prefered"?

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by luvdutch » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:00 am

Thanks ngonyama. Glad to know the history of the dutch language. Both answers are very helpful. Thank you!

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by ngonyama » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:17 am

Dolo wrote:
ngonyama wrote: ik had liever gehad = ik zou liever gehad hebben.
So, how do you translate it? "I would have prefered"?
Yes, or: I would rather have had ...

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by luvdutch » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:00 am

Dear Ngonyama. Could you help with the word 'schenken'. The example is found as follows:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wie schenkt in de praktijk de meeste aandacht aan de kinderen?

QUESTIONS: It is noticed that 'schenken' is always used with the words 'aandacht' + 'aan'. Is it a fixed expression? Can the word 'schenken' replaced by 'geven' anytime? Is 'schenken' more formal than 'geven' ?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On wikipedia, the word 'schenken' has two explanations:

1, to give as a present, to gift.

2, to pour.

QUESTIONS: Is 'schenken' a frequently-used word? What is corresponding examples for explanations 1 and 2?

Ik schenk hem een cadeau?
Hij schenkt het water in de glazen?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you : )

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by ngonyama » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:52 am

luvdutch wrote:Dear Ngonyama. Could you help with the word 'schenken'. The example is found as follows:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wie schenkt in de praktijk de meeste aandacht aan de kinderen?

QUESTIONS: It is noticed that 'schenken' is always used with the words 'aandacht' + 'aan'. Is it a fixed expression?
aandacht schenken aan is a fixed expression, but schenken can also be used in the meaning of to donate:

Hij schonk het museum zijn kunstcollectie. -- He donated his art collection to the museum

In this sense it is a ditransitive verb. You can make it passive with worden and pseudo-passive with krijgen:
Zijn kunstcollectie werd door hemm aan het museum geschonken
Het museum kreeg van hem zijn kunstcollectie geschonken.





Can the word 'schenken' replaced by 'geven' anytime? Is 'schenken' more formal than 'geven' ?

Yes, it 'grander' it means donating a big gift


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On wikipedia, the word 'schenken' has two explanations:

1, to give as a present, to gift.

2, to pour.

QUESTIONS: Is 'schenken' a frequently-used word? What is corresponding examples for explanations 1 and 2?

Ik schenk hem een cadeau? --> to donate
Hij schenkt het water in de glazen? to pour

In the latter meaning it is typically just transitive. It only has a direct object, not an indirect one

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you : )

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by luvdutch » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:09 am

ngonyama wrote:
luvdutch wrote:Dear Ngonyama. Could you help with the word 'schenken'. The example is found as follows:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On wikipedia, the word 'schenken' has two explanations:

1, to give as a present, to gift.

2, to pour.

QUESTIONS: Is 'schenken' a frequently-used word? What is corresponding examples for explanations 1 and 2?

Ik schenk hem een cadeau? --> to donate
Hij schenkt het water in de glazen? to pour

In the latter meaning it is typically just transitive. It only has a direct object, not an indirect one

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you : )

Thanks a lot. Now it is much clearer. the wiktionary sometimes a little bit confusing. by the way, i made those two examples but i was not sure about the wiktionary( cuz there are no examples sometimes). Thanks for your explanations!!

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by luvdutch » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:24 am

///////

Volgens mij komt dat doordat je pas merkt dat er politie is als zich problemen voordoen. De politie verschijnt wanneer mensen dingen doen die niet zijn toegestaan.........Op tv verschijnt dan al gauw iemand die zich als slachtoffer van de politie beschouwt.

Question 1: the three words put together 'dan', 'al', 'gauw'. are quite hard to grasp the timing of the sentence. (on tv it appears then already someone sees themselves as the victims.) This sentence is in a 'present tense'. but 'dan' is a word try to say what happens next. 'al' is a word says 'already happened'. 'gauw' is a word about 'soon'. so when exactly do the people feel they are/were the victims of the police? if the timing of this sentence is not important. so what is the meaning one should get from this sentence?

///////

Verder is er een badkamer een wc, en uiteraard een keuken.

Question 2:what is the difference between ''uiteraard' and 'natuurlijk'.


///////
Alleen indien je een baan hebt waarmee je voldoende verdient, is de bank bereid jou te helpen.

Question 3:what is the difference between 'indien' and 'als'.


///////
Welke afstanden heeft jouw land van noord naar zuid en van oost naar west?

Question 4: Is 'welk'+'hebben' a fixed way of expressing the question of distance? Is it allowed to say: 'Wat zijn de afstanden in jouw land van noord naar zuid en van oost naar west?" or" Wat afstanden heeft jouw land van ....."


////////
Friesland, eveneens in het noorden, heeft een eigen taal en cultuur.

Question 5: when to use 'eveneens' and when 'ook'?


/////////
Er dreigt altijd het gevaar dat er een dijk breekt.

Question 6: is this word 'dreigen' used only with 'er' + 'gevaar' or could you say: het water dreigt NL?



/////////
De politie verschijnt wanneer mensen dingen doen die niet zijn toegestaan.
Er zijn veel woorden die ik na een paar dagen ben vergeten.

Question7: The rule of putting the verb at the end of a sentence comes from the use of the word 'dat' or 'omdat', 'als'..... for example: Dat betekent dat je elke dag naar school gaat. Je leert Nederlands omdat je nu in NL woont.

but why the verbs 'zijn' and 'ben' were put at the second last position in the sentences?

////////

Krant en bladen moet je dikwijls apart buiten zetten.

Question 8: Is there difference between 'dikwijls' and 'vaak'?

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by ngonyama » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:38 am

luvdutch wrote:///////

Volgens mij komt dat doordat je pas merkt dat er politie is als zich problemen voordoen. De politie verschijnt wanneer mensen dingen doen die niet zijn toegestaan.........Op tv verschijnt dan al gauw iemand die zich als slachtoffer van de politie beschouwt.

Question 1: the three words put together 'dan', 'al', 'gauw'. are quite hard to grasp the timing of the sentence. (on tv it appears then already someone sees themselves as the victims.) This sentence is in a 'present tense'. but 'dan' is a word try to say what happens next. 'al' is a word says 'already happened'. 'gauw' is a word about 'soon'. so when exactly do the people feel they are/were the victims of the police? if the timing of this sentence is not important. so what is the meaning one should get from this sentence?

Yes this is hard... There are a number of adverbs that are used more to 'flavor' the sentence than to add meaning and sometimes they are used in combination. How to explain... "dan" in this case means "in such a case" here. "al gauw" indicates a high probability or rather a frequency. So the combination means something like: "in such a case it often happens that"

///////

Verder is er een badkamer een wc, en uiteraard een keuken.

Question 2:what is the difference between ''uiteraard' and 'natuurlijk'.

uiteraard is a bit stronger, it means something like "that goes without saying, inevitably"

///////
Alleen indien je een baan hebt waarmee je voldoende verdient, is de bank bereid jou te helpen.

Question 3:what is the difference between 'indien' and 'als'.

indien is more formal than als. It is actually a bit strange to see it combined with "je". I would have expected nin not ni.

///////
Welke afstanden heeft jouw land van noord naar zuid en van oost naar west?

Question 4: Is 'welk'+'hebben' a fixed way of expressing the question of distance? Is it allowed to say: 'Wat zijn de afstanden in jouw land van noord naar zuid en van oost naar west?" or" Wat afstanden heeft jouw land van ....."

I would also use "zijn". The hebben construction is a little strange. A different matter is that "wat afstanden" is incorrect. You could say "wat voor afstanden" (what kind of distance), but you cannot use wat as an adjective. That is what "welk/ welke is for"
////////
Friesland, eveneens in het noorden, heeft een eigen taal en cultuur.

Question 5: when to use 'eveneens' and when 'ook'?
eveneens is more scolarly. Written language. Ook is more everyday language

/////////
Er dreigt altijd het gevaar dat er een dijk breekt.

Question 6: is this word 'dreigen' used only with 'er' + 'gevaar' or could you say: het water dreigt NL?

No, you can say "Het gevaar dreigt dat ..." without er. With "er" it is a bit more impersonal. You cannot say "het water dreigt NL" because dreigen is not a transitive verb. To make it transitive use be-: het water bedreigt NL.


/////////
De politie verschijnt wanneer mensen dingen doen die niet zijn toegestaan.
Er zijn veel woorden die ik na een paar dagen ben vergeten.

Question7: The rule of putting the verb at the end of a sentence comes from the use of the word 'dat' or 'omdat', 'als'..... for example: Dat betekent dat je elke dag naar school gaat. Je leert Nederlands omdat je nu in NL woont.

but why the verbs 'zijn' and 'ben' were put at the second last position in the sentences?

I would put "zijn" and "ben" at the very end, but in combination with a perfect participle about half the speakers don't. It is partly a regional thing. But there are even fanatic journalists and editors that would 'correct' my sentences bij avoiding putting the auxiliary at the end (at Wikipedia e.g.). Some people consider 'toegestaan zijn' 'German' word order. I think that that is utter nonsense and anti-German bigotry on top of it. There has actually been research on these 'green' and 'red' word orders. Conclusion: both are used, and it has nothing to do with German.

Coming from where I was born I should actually say 'zijn toegestaan', but I lived in the northeast for 13 years and there they'll use 'toegestaan zijn'. I must have been infected. :mrgreen:

////////

Krant en bladen moet je dikwijls apart buiten zetten.

Question 8: Is there difference between 'dikwijls' and 'vaak'?
again a matter of register: dikwijls is more written language, a little more formal than vaak

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by luvdutch » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:57 am

xie xie nin Ngonyama! :-D

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by luvdutch » Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:47 am

De haven van Rotterdam is zelfs de grootste van de wereld.

Question 1:

is this sentence actually a sentence omitting the word 'haven' after the 'grootste' as to make it sounds good. can 'de grootste' be replaced by 'het grootst' here as well?

////////////

In de zomer zwemmen we. Of we zeilen met een schip over het water, hetgeen mogelijk is door de kracht van de wind.

Question 2:

On wiktionary the word 'hetgeen' has a formal quality. Is there a less formal way to say this? It looks like 'hetgeen' is used with a comma before it as a attributive clause. Is that a must in this case?

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by ngonyama » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:45 am

luvdutch wrote:De haven van Rotterdam is zelfs de grootste van de wereld.

Question 1:

is this sentence actually a sentence omitting the word 'haven' after the 'grootste' as to make it sounds good. can 'de grootste' be replaced by 'het grootst' here as well?
The omission is more or less mandatory for stylistic reasons: to avoid saying haven twice in close succession. Otherwise: adjectives -including the superlative- can easily be turn into a noun like this.
You cannot replace it by the neutral 'het grootst' if you add the 'van de wereld' part.

////////////

In de zomer zwemmen we. Of we zeilen met een schip over het water, hetgeen mogelijk is door de kracht van de wind.

Question 2:

On wiktionary the word 'hetgeen' has a formal quality. Is there a less formal way to say this?
you could use 'wat'

It looks like 'hetgeen' is used with a comma before it as a attributive clause. Is that a must in this case?
I'm not such an expert at interpunction, but I think a comma is mandatory because the relative pronoun refers back to the whole previous sentence and in speaking you'd make a bit of a pause to indicate that.

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Re: Q&A Corner

Post by Dolo » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:30 pm

Excuse me 'luvdutch', can I post here some questions as well? ;D I don't want to make a new thread:

Vrouw (38) krijgt werkstraf voor mishandeling 13-jarig meisje

Een 38-jarige vrouw uit Hoogeveen is vrijdag veroordeeld tot een werkstraf van tachtig uur wegens het mishandelen van een 13-jarig meisje.


Is there any strict rule for the omission of "van"? In the first sentence it seems to be dropped after a noun transformed from a verb but in the second one it is present in the very same enviroment. Does it have anything to do with the article "een"?

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