Confused with word order - bijzinnen

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According to many, the word order is one of the hardest parts of the Dutch language. If you are also struggling with subordinate clauses, inversion and the like, this is the place to be.
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Burgsch
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Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by Burgsch » Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:29 am

Hallo,

Ik vervolg mijn "reis" met Nederlands taal. Het is moeilijke vraag, dus ik gebruik nu Engels aub :)

Since last time I've learned plenty of things, however I am still confused with this ridicously weird word order and special cases\differences to the English I am used to.

Despite of my efforts I am not able to smoothly pass word order, especially "bijzinnen".

I know such words like have different word order than other words. Now first group:

want - because
maar - but
en - and
of - or

The correct word order for these words is:
..., |[word_above] | onderwerp | verb | rest
example:
Ik ben dik, want ik eet veel.

Words above are not problematic for me because they sound "natural". The problem begins with words below:

dat|omdat|of|als|toen|nadat|voordat|zodat|doordat|sinds|terwijl|zodra|dus

The word order changes to:
..., |[word_above] | onderwerp | rest | verb
example:
Ik ben dik, omdat ik veel eet.

How to remember all those words? For me saying verb as last in the word is so weird - when I have long sentence to speak I often forget to put verb on the end because it sounds oddly to say "I am fat because I a lot eat". Is there easy way to not be confused with this?

I tried to find excercises for these problems but i couldn't find any related for particular problems.
I am interested to get all words which change word order. I also know if the sentence begins by such word, the order is different too.
Not saying about other types like vervoelgens, daardoor, daarom, ten slotte, daarna, dan.

My teacher says there is no "zo" word in Dutch - I cannot use it to connect two sentences.
I tried to say - "Ik ben vrij, zo ik ben blij".
She said me I had to use "dus".

Also there is no "default onderwerp or word skipping". In English I can say "I know he can do it". I skipped "that" between "know he".
I tried to say "Ik weet hij magt deze doen". She said I must use "dat" between "weet hij".

Is all of this explained thoroughly, deeply with all cases? I have "werkblokje" - "hoe maak ik een goede zin. Leerwerkbloekje Nederlands 1F-2F."
I used it a lot. 3\4 of excercises are solved by me but there are no answers so I do not know if properly :(

Every day I learn 20 new words. I learnt about 2000 words, my repetition is around 70-80% of them (Memrise course 4000 most used words in Netherlands).
But when I want to speak I am frozen because of this weird word order which ruins my whole sentences to piece of non-understandable bumble - especially when there are modal verbs+bijzin+present perfect :P

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Bert
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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by Bert » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:14 pm

Ga er maar aan staan! "I know he can do it." - Ik weet dat hij het kan doen. "I know he may do it." - Ik weet dat hij het mag* doen.
[*dus niet magt]

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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by ngonyama » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:20 am

Burgsch wrote:Hallo,

Ik vervolg mijn "reis" met Nederlands taal. Het is moeilijke vraag, dus ik gebruik nu Engels aub :)

Since last time I've learned plenty of things, however I am still confused with this ridicously weird word order and special cases\differences to the English I am used to.

It is pretty difficult and a lot of people struggle with it.

Despite of my efforts I am not able to smoothly pass word order, especially "bijzinnen".

I know such words like have different word order than other words. Now first group:

want - because
maar - but
en - and
of - or

The correct word order for these words is:
..., |[word_above] | onderwerp | verb | rest
example:
Ik ben dik, want ik eet veel.

Words above are not problematic for me because they sound "natural". The problem begins with words below:

dat|omdat|of|als|toen|nadat|voordat|zodat|doordat|sinds|terwijl|zodra|dus

The word order changes to:
..., |[word_above] | onderwerp | rest | verb
example:
Ik ben dik, omdat ik veel eet.

How to remember all those words? For me saying verb as last in the word is so weird - when I have long sentence to speak I often forget to put verb on the end because it sounds oddly to say "I am fat because I a lot eat". Is there easy way to not be confused with this?

I speak English all day and I could not do it in English either... I think it is something to slowly grow into
I tried to find excercises for these problems but i couldn't find any related for particular problems.
I tried to write a few here https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch/Lesson_11A

I am interested to get all words which change word order. I also know if the sentence begins by such word, the order is different too.
Not saying about other types like vervoelgens, daardoor, daarom, ten slotte, daarna, dan.

There are not conjuctions but adverbs. You get simple inversion when you put them up front, not SOV.
My teacher says there is no "zo" word in Dutch - I cannot use it to connect two sentences.
The Dutch equivalent of English 'so' is 'dus'.
I tried to say - "Ik ben vrij, zo ik ben blij".
She said me I had to use "dus".
Ik ben vrij, dus ben ik blij.

Also there is no "default onderwerp or word skipping". In English I can say "I know he can do it". I skipped "that" between "know he".
I tried to say "Ik weet hij magt deze doen". She said I must use "dat" between "weet hij".
Yes in Dutch 'dat' cannot be omitted and it triggers SOV order:
Ik weet dat hij deze mag doen.

By the way, you can only use deze here if there was something with a de-word in the previous sentence that it refers to:

Hij vroeg naar de juiste opgave. Ik weet dat hij deze doen mag.



Is all of this explained thoroughly, deeply with all cases? I have "werkblokje" - "hoe maak ik een goede zin. Leerwerkbloekje Nederlands 1F-2F."
I used it a lot. 3\4 of excercises are solved by me but there are no answers so I do not know if properly :(


Every day I learn 20 new words. I learnt about 2000 words, my repetition is around 70-80% of them (Memrise course 4000 most used words in Netherlands).
Wonderful! But I think you have already noted that vocabulary is only one layer of the cake. The grammar and the syntax are not that easy to memorize. They need practice.

But when I want to speak I am frozen because of this weird word order which ruins my whole sentences to piece of non-understandable bumble - especially when there are modal verbs+bijzin+present perfect :P

Just relax: even if the word order is wrong people will still understand you! So just say your thing, even if it is a sentence of three words. Then listen carefully how they do it. Try to repeat bits of it. It's the best way to learn. Another trick is to say something and ask: Zeg ik het zo goed? If they tell you the correct way to say something, repeat what they say and thank them. Don't do this too often though. Once in a conversation, not more.

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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by Burgsch » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:26 pm

ngonyama wrote: I speak English all day and I could not do it in English either... I think it is something to slowly grow into
I tried to find excercises for these problems but i couldn't find any related for particular problems.
I tried to write a few here https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch/Lesson_11A
Thx, I found some words and I notice that "dus" word has been put together in a table with other words (Lesson 11)
Nevenschikkend (co-ordinating) en maar want of (or) dus

My teacher said me, "dus" word order is the same as for maar, en, want.
You have given me an example: "Ik ben vrij, dus ben ik blij" - Ik ben vrij [dus]_persoonsvorm_onderverp_rest.
However for maar, en, want, dus according to the table I quoted before it should be "Ik ben vrij, dus ik ben blij" - Ik ben vrij [dus]_onderwerp_persoonsvorm_rest.

Am I confusing something?
Wonderful! But I think you have already noted that vocabulary is only one layer of the cake. The grammar and the syntax are not that easy to memorize. They need practice.
Yeah I noticed that too. When I do tests I have no problems, when I do speak live people think "omg next klootzak" :mrgreen:
Bert wrote:Ga er maar aan staan! "I know he can do it." - Ik weet dat hij het kan doen. "I know he may do it." - Ik weet dat hij het mag* doen.
[*dus niet magt]
Dat hielp me een beetje, ik vergeet vaak over "het" word.

ngonyama
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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by ngonyama » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:32 pm

Burgsch wrote:
ngonyama wrote: I speak English all day and I could not do it in English either... I think it is something to slowly grow into
I tried to find excercises for these problems but i couldn't find any related for particular problems.
I tried to write a few here https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch/Lesson_11A
Thx, I found some words and I notice that "dus" word has been put together in a table with other words (Lesson 11)
Nevenschikkend (co-ordinating) en maar want of (or) dus

My teacher said me, "dus" word order is the same as for maar, en, want.
You have given me an example: "Ik ben vrij, dus ben ik blij" - Ik ben vrij [dus]_persoonsvorm_onderverp_rest.
However for maar, en, want, dus according to the table I quoted before it should be "Ik ben vrij, dus ik ben blij" - Ik ben vrij [dus]_onderwerp_persoonsvorm_rest.

Am I confusing something?

Not really. Dus is a a bit of a newcomer as conjunction. Originally it is an adverb and when you put and adverb up front you get inversion:

Ik ben blij.
Daarom ben ik blij
Dus ben ik blij.

Sometimes that still happens even if you use it like a conjunction:
Ik ben vrij, dus ik ben blij. <- used as conjunction
Ik ben vrij; dus ben ik blij. <- used as adverb.

You'll hear both. I think I probably do #2 more.


Wonderful! But I think you have already noted that vocabulary is only one layer of the cake. The grammar and the syntax are not that easy to memorize. They need practice.
Yeah I noticed that too. When I do tests I have no problems, when I do speak live people think "omg next klootzak" :mrgreen:

I have been that klootzak so often in my life.... :D It is called being a world citizen. Just think of what a provincial people they are. :twisted:
Bert wrote:Ga er maar aan staan! "I know he can do it." - Ik weet dat hij het kan doen. "I know he may do it." - Ik weet dat hij het mag* doen.
[*dus niet magt]
Dat hielp me een beetje, ik vergeet vaak over "het" word.

Burgsch
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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by Burgsch » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:23 pm

Dank u :)

Na de enkele maanden heb ik minder problemen met bijzinnen maar soms zie ik rare dingen. Mijn leraar heeft me om te uitleggen geprobeerd, maar ik begreep alleen beetje lol.
Belangrijkste is dat ik kan meest worden net zoals "omdat", "daarna", "als" ect herkennen.

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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by ngonyama » Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:18 pm

Burgsch wrote:Dank u :)

Na de enkele maanden heb ik minder problemen met bijzinnen maar soms zie ik rare dingen. Mijn leraar heeft geprobeerd me om me dit te uit te leggen geprobeerd, maar ik begreep daar alleenmaar een beetje van lol.
Belangrijkste is dat ik kan de meeste woorden net zoals "omdat", "daarna", "als" ect herkennen kan.

Mooi zo! =D> Maar vergeet "dat" niet... Ook na dit voegwoord krijg je de onderschikkende volgorde.

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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by Burgsch » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:35 pm

ngonyama wrote:
Burgsch wrote:Dank u :)

Na de enkele maanden heb ik minder problemen met bijzinnen maar soms zie ik rare dingen. Mijn leraar heeft geprobeerd me om me dit te uit te leggen geprobeerd, maar ik begreep daar alleenmaar een beetje van lol.
Belangrijkste is dat ik kan de meeste woorden net zoals "omdat", "daarna", "als" ect herkennen kan.

Mooi zo! =D> Maar vergeet "dat" niet... Ook na dit voegwoord krijg je de onderschikkende volgorde.
Wow, zo korte zin en zo vele fouten. Ik dacht mijn zin was genoeg begrijpelijk.

Ik begrijp dat niet:
Mijn leraar heeft geprobeerd me om me dit te uit te leggen geprobeerd, maar ik begreep daar alleenmaar een beetje van lol.

Waarom is "geprobeerd" vlak bij "heeft"? Altijd was ik gepraat dat verb laatste is. In mijn mening zou ik zeg:
Mijn leraar heeft me om te uitleggen geprobeerd. My teacher tried to explain (to) me.
Mijn leraar - onderwerp
heeft geprobeerd - verb but divide in 2 parts, one goes on the end
om te uitleggen - rest

maar ik begreep alleen beetje. but I understood only a little.
Ik weet niet wat "daar" doet er.

En de laatste, heel interessante:
Belangrijkste is dat ik kan de meeste woorden net zoals "omdat", "daarna", "als" ect herkennen kan.

In deze zin mijn "dat" word meent niet als "connection". Ik bedoelde "that".
In this sentence my "dat" word had no meaning as conjuction. It was mean to be read as "that (pointing on something)" - The most important is that.
You corrected it as mistake, does it mean that any "dat" is used always as "dat" with changed word order?

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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by ngonyama » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:58 pm

Burgsch wrote:
ngonyama wrote:
Burgsch wrote:Dank u :)

Na de enkele maanden heb ik minder problemen met bijzinnen maar soms zie ik rare dingen. Mijn leraar heeft geprobeerd me om me dit te uit te leggen geprobeerd, maar ik begreep daar alleenmaar een beetje van lol.
Belangrijkste is dat ik kan de meeste woorden net zoals "omdat", "daarna", "als" ect herkennen kan.

Mooi zo! =D> Maar vergeet "dat" niet... Ook na dit voegwoord krijg je de onderschikkende volgorde.
Wow, zo korte zin en zo vele fouten. Ik dacht mijn zin was genoeg begrijpelijk.

sorry hoor :o De zin was begrijpelijk genoeg.

Ik begrijp dat niet:
Mijn leraar heeft geprobeerd me om me dit te uit te leggen geprobeerd, maar ik begreep daar alleenmaar een beetje van lol.

Waarom is "geprobeerd" vlak bij "heeft"? Altijd was ik gepraat dat verb laatste is. In mijn mening zou ik zeg:
Mijn leraar heeft me om te uitleggen geprobeerd. My teacher tried to explain (to) me.
Mijn leraar - onderwerp
heeft geprobeerd - verb but divide in 2 parts, one goes on the end
om te uitleggen - rest

de constructie met "om" en "te" is een zogenaamde beknopte bijzin. Geprobeerd staat aan het eind van de hoofdzin. De bijzin kom erachter:

Mijn leraar heeft heel vaak met grote moeite geprobeerd om me dit met veel voorbeelden uit te leggen

As you see "gebrobeerd" does come at the end of the first main clause. The second part starts with "om". It is "beknopt" (abridged) because it uses the extended infinitive "uit te leggen" rather than a 'real' finite verb like "hij legde uit". Notice that the extended infinitive splits up if the verb is separable.

maar ik begreep alleen beetje. but I understood only a little.
Ik weet niet wat "daar" doet er.

After "beetje" you would expect "van" In Polish you'd probably get a genitive or partitive after it? In Dutch you get a pronominal adverb.

Een beetje van dat --> een beetje daarvan --> ik begrijp daar een beetje van.

So the 'daar' replaces the pronoun 'dat'.


En de laatste, heel interessante:
Belangrijkste is dat ik kan de meeste woorden net zoals "omdat", "daarna", "als" ect herkennen kan.

In deze zin mijn "dat" word meent niet als "connection". Ik bedoelde "that".
In this sentence my "dat" word had no meaning as conjuction. It was mean to be read as "that (pointing on something)" - The most important is that.
You corrected it as mistake, does it mean that any "dat" is used always as "dat" with changed word order?


I'm not quite sure I understand you. I meant to say that after the conjunction "dat" (marked in red) you get dependent word order:

Hij loopt op straat
Ik zie "dat" hij op straat loopt

not:

Ik zie "dat" hij loopt op straat

This is why the "kan" in your sentence should be at the end.

Or did you mean this:

Het belangrijkste is dit: ik kan .....

In this case you need a : and it would be more natural to opt for the nearby "dit" rather than far off "dat" because what you are pointing at follows right behind.




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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by Burgsch » Sun May 01, 2016 11:38 pm

You know what.... your language is highly retarded :mrgreen:

Regarding "dat".
Sometimes I heard "I begrijp dat niet".
Dat word here is used as pointer - "I don't understand THIS".
So this was my question - does "dat" word always mean changed word order even if it is used only as a pointer as I showed in my example above?

Other thing. In English sometimes you can skip "that" or any other word when it is obvious what they refer to.

I think English is easy. | Ik denk Engels is gemakkelijk

or in Dutch you have to always use "that".... Ik denk DAT Engels gemakkelijk is.
I do a lot sentences without DAT, example "Ik denk mijn auto is OK".

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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by ngonyama » Mon May 02, 2016 6:59 pm

Burgsch wrote:You know what.... your language is highly retarded :mrgreen:

Thank you, that is most kind of you.

Regarding "dat".
Sometimes I heard "I begrijp dat niet".
Dat word here is used as pointer - "I don't understand THIS".
So this was my question - does "dat" word always mean changed word order even if it is used only as a pointer as I showed in my example above?

No, only if it is used as a conjuction


Other thing. In English sometimes you can skip "that" or any other word when it is obvious what they refer to.

I think English is easy. | Ik denk Engels is gemakkelijk

or in Dutch you have to always use "that".... Ik denk DAT Engels gemakkelijk is.
I do a lot sentences without DAT, example "Ik denk mijn auto is OK".

It Dutch that is not correct.

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Re: Confused with word order - bijzinnen

Post by Burgsch » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:18 pm

Thank you. I understand them better now :)

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