General principle of Dutch word order

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According to many, the word order is one of the hardest parts of the Dutch language. If you are also struggling with subordinate clauses, inversion and the like, this is the place to be.
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Myrtone
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General principle of Dutch word order

Post by Myrtone » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:08 am

It seems that one general pattern in Dutch word order is saving key information for the end of a clause. An example is when a clause has two verbs. When you hear the sentence of somebody else, this means that you don't get the complete picture until the end.
In English, when we say something like 'I would like to make an appointment tomorrow' the listerner gets an idea of what's going on after the word 'appointment' with 'tomorrow' modifying the listerner's repsonse.
In Dutch, that thought is constructed in a different way for the listener; 'Ik wil graag...' then morgen, then een afspraak then maken on the end, completing the picture. Dutch tends to leave the picture far from complete until the end of the clause.

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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by estarling » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:31 am

Perhaps, this makes communication in Dutch more effective.
You can't afford to interrupt your interlocutor at any point,
you have to follow the speaker till the end of his statement
thus to be able to get the right meaning and give back a proper answer.
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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by ngonyama » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:57 pm

Oh, dear, Estarling is onto us... Yes, we love to keep people in suspense, isn't it? At least about our verbs. But then English does that with subjects. Like:

I have beaten ........

Beaten what? An egg? Your opponent? Your wife? Your habit?

So, you see it is all matter of suspense.

Ik heb mijn vrouw ....

Gekust? Geslagen? Opgebeld? Liefgehad? Niets daarvan verteld?

So, what makes for better poetry? Poets love to play around with such things to create suspense and resolution.

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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by estarling » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:24 pm

Hello Ngonyama. This is because you pushed the subject towards poetry... :-)
Writing poems in various languages, I guess, you may have some flexibility
in overruling the word order for the sake of rhyme, rhythm or pace.
I wonder if doing poetry in Dutch you may take some liberty of expression for above reasons,
or you have to observe all the word order rules as when writing a story !?
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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by ngonyama » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:31 am

Oh, sometime people take some liberties alright

Have a look at this one:

http://www.gedichten.nl/nedermap/gedich ... 41836.html

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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by BrutallyFrank » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:22 am

I was thinking about this yesterday and my conclusion was that everything goes as long as it makes sense. But now that I see Ngoyama's answer I realise that I forgot all about Hanlo. BUT it did remind me of Paul van Ostayen ... being a 'grafisch-technicus' I always liked how design can be used to get a message across (although I hate Neville Brody's work: more about art than about the message).
And of course Guillaume Apollonaire, but he's not Dutch/Flemish ...

Van Ostayen's "Boem paukenslag!"
Image
"Moenie worrie nie, alles sal reg kom" (maar hy het nie gesê wanneer nie!)

Image

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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by estarling » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:17 am

BrutallyFrank wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:22 am
I was thinking about this yesterday and my conclusion was that everything goes as long as it makes sense.
Yes, nice said: Everything goes as long as it makes sense.
On the other hand a total freedom of expression leads not always to a logical result.
A poem comes out partly as an enigma, partly as reality.
Finally it needs to be accepted by the reader's mind as something nice.
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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by estarling » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:39 pm

OOTE,
door Jan Hanlo

Oote oote oote
Boe
Oote oote
Oote oote oote boe
Oe oe
Oe oe oote oote oote
A
A a a
Oote a a a
Oote oe oe
Oe oe oe
Oe oe oe oe oe
Oe oe oe oe oe
Oe oe oe oe oe oe oe
Oe oe oe etc.
Oote oote oote
Eh eh euh
Euh euh etc.
Oote oote oote boe
etc.
etc. etc.
Hoe boe hoe boe
Hoe boe hoe boe
B boe
Boe oe oe
Oe oe (etc.)
Oe oe oe oe
etc.
Eh eh euh euh euh
Oo-eh oo-eh o-eh eh eh eh
Ah ach ah ach ach ah a a
Oh ohh ohh hh hhh (etc.)
Hhd d d
Hdd
D d d d da
D dda d dda da
D da d da d da d da d da da
da
Da da demband
Demband demband dembrand dembrandt
Dembrandt Dembrandt Dembrandt
Doe d doe d doe dda doe
Da do do do da do do do
Do do da do deu d
Do do do deu deu doe deu deu
Deu deu deu da dd deu
Deu deu deu deu

Kneu kneu kneu kneu ote kneu eur
Kneu kneu ote kneu eur
Kneu ote ote ote ote ote
Ote ote oote
Ote ote
Boe
Oote oote oote boe
Oote oote boe oote oote oote boe


At first glance, this poem seems to resemble the noise of a peaceful morning deep in a wild delta.
Birds chirping, fish jumping, wild horses running... but then, this is a memory from a nature film.

....yeah..., this is how the poetry works. :-)

Thanks for the site address Ngonyama.
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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by estarling » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:35 pm

BrutallyFrank wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:22 am
... being a 'grafisch-technicus' I always liked how design can be used to get a message across (although I hate Neville Brody's work: more about art than about the message).

Van Ostayen's "Boem paukenslag!"
Image
My Graphic Design Bible is : ''The Non-Designer's Web Book'' by Robbin Williams and John Tollett.
I red and studied it with the same zest as an action roman. One of the best books in my life.
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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by Myrtone » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:36 am

estarling wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:31 am
Perhaps, this makes communication in Dutch more effective.
You can't afford to interrupt your interlocutor at any point,
you have to follow the speaker till the end of his statement
thus to be able to get the right meaning and give back a proper answer.
Yes, Dutch word order may well be geared around preventing the very assumptions that those interrupting make.

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Re: General principle of Dutch word order

Post by estarling » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:18 pm

Well, I pushed it a bit too far. :-)
How is going with your Dutch learning process?
Have you completed it, or was not your case?
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