Normaal zijn hier...

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According to many, the word order is one of the hardest parts of the Dutch language. If you are also struggling with subordinate clauses, inversion and the like, this is the place to be.
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k.tihanyi
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Normaal zijn hier...

Post by k.tihanyi » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:01 pm

I have seen several times the following type of sentences:

Normaal zijn hier van juni tot augustus rondleidingen.
Normaal zijn hier meer mensen.

This structure seems logical to me but basing which I studied up till now shouldn't be:

Normaal zijn er hier van juni tot augustus rondleidingen.
Normaal zijn er hier meer mensen.

or something like that?

Thank you very much

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BrutallyFrank
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Re: Normaal zijn hier...

Post by BrutallyFrank » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:48 pm

You're completely right: those sentences can (should?) contain the word 'er' in it, but aren't incorrect when you leave it out. Here the sentence is cutting corners: it's more spoken word than a good sentence. But normally another word would also be added: 'gesproken' (part of the expression: 'normaal gesproken' = normally speaking). But leaving them out isn't bad.

In this case the sentence could be:
"Normaal gesproken zijn er hier van juni tot augustus rondleidingen."
"Normaal gesproken zijn er hier meer mensen."


Good point you noticed that! Seems you're getting the hang of it ...
"Moenie worrie nie, alles sal reg kom" (maar hy het nie gesê wanneer nie!)

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k.tihanyi
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Re: Normaal zijn hier...

Post by k.tihanyi » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:31 am

Thank you very much for your answer and also for the kind comment. If only it would be true!

Just one more question:

It would be grammatically correct to transform the above sentences also in the below way?

Normaal zijn rondleidingen hier van juni tot augustus.
Normaal zijn rondleidingen van juni tot augustus hier.

Normaal zijn meer mensen hier.

I feel that so there is perhaps more emphasis on the “rondleidingen”/“meer mensen” and not on the “hier” isn’t it? But I wonder whether they are grammatically correct or they sound strange or they are faulty?

Thanks a lot again

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Re: Normaal zijn hier...

Post by LucJvanVeen » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:45 pm

Normaal zijn rondleidingen hier van juni tot augustus.
Normaal zijn rondleidingen van juni tot augustus hier.

Normaal zijn meer mensen hier.

Are all correct, altough some are less likely to be used in some situations. For instance, 'Normaal zijn meer mensen hier', puts lots of emphasis on 'hier', meaning the people aren't here but specificlly somewhere else. If you say 'Normaal zijn er hier meer mensen', it doesn't necessarily mean they are somewhere else, they are just not 'hier'.

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Re: Normaal zijn hier...

Post by ngonyama » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:58 am

LucJvanVeen wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:45 pm
Normaal zijn rondleidingen hier van juni tot augustus.
Normaal zijn rondleidingen van juni tot augustus hier.

Normaal zijn meer mensen hier.

Are all correct, altough some are less likely to be used in some situations. For instance, 'Normaal zijn meer mensen hier', puts lots of emphasis on 'hier', meaning the people aren't here but specificlly somewhere else. If you say 'Normaal zijn er hier meer mensen', it doesn't necessarily mean they are somewhere else, they are just not 'hier'.
If you make it definite they are correct:
Normaal zijn de rondleidingen hier van juni tot augustus.
Normaal zijn de rondleidingen van juni tot augustus hier.

In the indefinite case usually "er" is added
Normaal zijn er rondleidingen hier van juni tot augustus.
Normaal zijn er rondleidingen van juni tot augustus hier.

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Re: Normaal zijn hier...

Post by k.tihanyi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:17 pm

Thanks a lot for the answers.

First for the correction of my absolutely false understanding relative to the fact, how the word order influences the emphasis.

Second, that my question is just the small disagreement between the two latest answers. I wanted to understand if changing the word order (using inversion) I could avoid the usage of "er" in presence of an indefinite subject or not. Does it seems not?

Looking around in the internet I found always more complicated things about the lot of types of subjects. It seems that in this case "er" is a plaatsonderwerp (?). And at the link:

http://dictionnaire.sensagent.leparisie ... el)/nl-nl/

I have found the following:

"
Plaatsonderwerp

Er als tweede onderwerp aan het begin van de zin of na inversie midden in de zin direct na de persoonsvorm, dus waar gewoonlijk het echte onderwerp staat. In dit laatste geval is het gebruik van er meestal optioneel:
Er stond een agent voor het consulaat.
Gisteravond stond (er) een agent voor het consulaat.
"

It seems that both are correct? So:

"Normaal zijn (er) rondleidingen hier van juni tot augustus."

But what does it mean that "meestal optioneel"? Better to say when "er" in "dit laatse geval" is not optional but obligatory?

Thanks immensely

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