[...] van die [...]

[voorzetsels]
Do we buy our train tickets 'in' or 'op' the station? Do we ask 'voor' or 'om' informatie?
Post Reply
Dhoni
Nieuwkomer
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:34 pm
Country of residence: Indonesia
Mother tongue: Indonesian
Second language: English
Gender: Male

[...] van die [...]

Post by Dhoni » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:47 pm

In de herfst zie je overal van die mooie kleuren.
"In autumn, you see beautiful colors everywhere."

Could anyone help me explain what van die means in the first sentence ? I still don't see its translation in the second sentence. Thanks in advance. :)

Regards,
Dhoni

User avatar
BrutallyFrank
Global moderator
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:47 pm
Country of residence: Netherlands
Mother tongue: Dutch (Netherlands)
Second language: English
Third language: German
Fourth language: French
Gender: Male
Location: Eijsden-Margraten

Re: [...] van die [...]

Post by BrutallyFrank » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:33 pm

If you ask me, I think that these words are redundant because they don't really add much to the meaning of the sentence. The sentence can actually do without.

It's like someone says: "In autumn, you see those beautiful colors everywhere." ... it just refers to the fact that there are colours that aren't beautiful and points out that these colours ARE ... emphasizing. But it might as well be left out: "In de herfst zie je overal mooie kleuren" works just as well. I think that using 'van die' is more like some fashionable thing to say, but like I said: it doesn't really add anything.

I can imagine some old lady telling someone: "Ik wil graag gekleurde bloemen hebben ... je weet wel: van die mooie!"


btw Welcome here!
"Moenie worrie nie, alles sal reg kom" (maar hy het nie gesê wanneer nie!)

Image

Dhoni
Nieuwkomer
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:34 pm
Country of residence: Indonesia
Mother tongue: Indonesian
Second language: English
Gender: Male

Re: [...] van die [...]

Post by Dhoni » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:25 am

BrutallyFrank wrote:If you ask me, I think that these words are redundant because they don't really add much to the meaning of the sentence. The sentence can actually do without.

It's like someone says: "In autumn, you see those beautiful colors everywhere." ... it just refers to the fact that there are colours that aren't beautiful and points out that these colours ARE ... emphasizing. But it might as well be left out: "In de herfst zie je overal mooie kleuren" works just as well. I think that using 'van die' is more like some fashionable thing to say, but like I said: it doesn't really add anything.

I can imagine some old lady telling someone: "Ik wil graag gekleurde bloemen hebben ... je weet wel: van die mooie!"


btw Welcome here!
Thank you for welcoming and the explanation, BrutallyFrank ! :) I sometimes have difficulties when it deals with prepositions. But I've got it more clearly now, at least for those sentences. :D

Regards,
Dhoni

User avatar
Bieneke
Site Administrator
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:18 pm
Country of residence: Netherlands
Mother tongue: Dutch (Netherlands)
Second language: English
Gender: Female
Location: Maastricht

Re: [...] van die [...]

Post by Bieneke » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:44 am

Now that is an interesting question! I do not think "van die" is obsolete. I would translate it as "such".

In de herfst zie je overal van die mooie kleuren.
"In autumn, you see such beautiful colours everywhere."

Do note that in the above example, "such"/"van die" is a demonstrative pronoun. We cannot use "van die" as an exclamative pronoun:

"Such beautiful colours!"
"Zulke mooie kleuren!" or "Wat een mooie kleuren!"
Bieneke

ngonyama
Superlid
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:15 am
Country of residence: United States
Mother tongue: Dutch (Netherlands)
Second language: English
Third language: German
Fourth language: French
Fifth, sixth, seventh, ..., languages: Russisch, Xhosa

Re: [...] van die [...]

Post by ngonyama » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:59 pm

Bieneke wrote:Now that is an interesting question! I do not think "van die" is obsolete. I would translate it as "such".

In de herfst zie je overal van die mooie kleuren.
"In autumn, you see such beautiful colours everywhere."

Do note that in the above example, "such"/"van die" is a demonstrative pronoun. We cannot use "van die" as an exclamative pronoun:

"Such beautiful colours!"
"Zulke mooie kleuren!" or "Wat een mooie kleuren!"

I'd agree with your translation, and 'such' is a demonstrative pronoun, but can you say the same of 'van die'? If so, it is probably a periphrase of an old partitive genitive of the demonstrative 'die' (or dat: 'van dat mooie haar'). A bit like in 'hij heeft van dattum' or 'hij heeft van alles".

Dhoni
Nieuwkomer
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:34 pm
Country of residence: Indonesia
Mother tongue: Indonesian
Second language: English
Gender: Male

Re: [...] van die [...]

Post by Dhoni » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:17 pm

ngonyama wrote:
Bieneke wrote:Now that is an interesting question! I do not think "van die" is obsolete. I would translate it as "such".

In de herfst zie je overal van die mooie kleuren.
"In autumn, you see such beautiful colours everywhere."

Do note that in the above example, "such"/"van die" is a demonstrative pronoun. We cannot use "van die" as an exclamative pronoun:

"Such beautiful colours!"
"Zulke mooie kleuren!" or "Wat een mooie kleuren!"

I'd agree with your translation, and 'such' is a demonstrative pronoun, but can you say the same of 'van die'? If so, it is probably a periphrase of an old partitive genitive of the demonstrative 'die' (or dat: 'van dat mooie haar'). A bit like in 'hij heeft van dattum' or 'hij heeft van alles".
Thank you for the explanations, Bieneke and ngonyama ! All the explanations to my question really help me a lot. :-D But, it's still okay if we don't use van die in the sentence, isn't it ? And can it also mean that you're emphasizing the colors if you do use it ? Thanks.

Regards,
Dhoni

Post Reply