pronominal adverbs

[bijwoorden en bijvoeglijk naamwoorden]
An adjective says something about a noun or person: E.g. "the beautiful story" or "She is happy".
An adverb says something about a verb, an adjective, another adverb, a phrase, or a clause: "You did that well", "That is really nice."
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Polly
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pronominal adverbs

Post by Polly » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:40 pm

Studying page 156 of Bieneke's Dutch grammar we couldn't think of examples in Dutch for this subject. Can anyone help?

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by Dolo » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:26 pm

Something like daarmee, waarmee, ermee, ergens mee.

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by ngonyama » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:12 am

I did put in an exercise on this topic some time ago and I'm not sure what you mean by your question, but I'll give it a try.

Most combinations of a preposition+pronoun get replaced by a pronominal adverb in Dutch.
Compare:

He cuts bread with a knife
Hij snijdt brood met een mes

He cuts bread with it
Hij snijdt brood met het. ==> Hij snijdt brood ermee

Notice that the English construction with+it cannot be translated directly. The replacement is mandatory (in this and many other cases) or very common in most other cases.

Both parts of prep+pronoun are replaced by corresponding adverbs.

The first part is that the preposition met is replaced by the corresponding prepositional adverb mee. Usually the preposition and its corresponding adverb are identical. Met/mee and tot/toe are exceptions. However there are adverbs without prepositions like heen and af. Conversely there are prep's without and adverb like sinds, via, wegens etc.

So:
preposition ==> prep. adverb
met ===> mee
tot ===> toe
aan ===> aan
over ===> over
tegen ===> tegen
etc. ===> etc.
...........................
...... ====> heen
..... ====> af
sinds ===> .....
via ====> ....
wegens ===> ....

There are also compound prepositional adverbs like onderdoor, overheen etc. that cannot be used as prepositions as such, but that is a pretty complicated mess that I'd rather skip for the moment.

The other replacement is that the pronoun het is replaced by the corresponding locative adverb er.

These are the most common replacements:
het, ze ==> er
dit, deze ==> hier
die, dat ==> daar
wie, welke ==> waar
al, alle ==> overal
niets ==> nergens
iets ==> ergens
iets anders ===> ergens anders

Only the first 4 are written as one word: ermee, hieraan, daartussen waarover etc.
The other ones are written as two separate adverbs: overal naar, nerges over, ergens op, ergens anders onder

So the replacement is:
preposition+pronoun ===> locative adv+prep. adv.


Some examples:

Ik ga met de bus mee ====> Ik ga ermee mee
Dit is het huis. Ik kijk naar dit huis ==> Dit is het huis. Ik kijk hiernaar ===> Dit is het huis waar ik naar kijk
De auto staat tussen die twee vrachtauto's ==> De auto staat daartussen
Aan welk voorbeeld denk je? ==> Waaraan denk je? (of: Waar denk je aan?)
Je kunt dat niet met alle middelen schoonmaken ===> Je kunt dit niet overal mee schoonmaken.

Notice that an additional complication is that pronominal adverbs are separable, so the two parts, the locative and the prepositional adverb may well end up separated from each other.
Notice also that the prepositional adverbs are also used to make separable verbs like meegaan. That explains why you have "mee" twice in the first example, although people do tend to avoid that for stylistic reasons.

OK your turn:

Translate and turn this part into a pronominal adverb.

He was looking at something
He was afraid of nothing
We ate with chopsticks
This is the car with which we drove to Terneuzen.
Last edited by ngonyama on Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:45 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by ngonyama » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:18 am

Hij keek ergens naar
Hij was nergens bang van.
Wij aten ermee
Dit is de auto waarmee we naar Terneuzen gereden zijn.
Dit is de auto waar we mee naar Terneuzen gereden zijn.

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by ngonyama » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:10 am

Well yes. I did write an exercise, but it is gone! See viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4373 and click on the link.

Does that mean that all exercises have been scrapped???

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by ngonyama » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:08 am

Ok, those exercises seem to be gone, so let me add some more examples

Ik heb dat om die reden niet gedaan
Daarom heb ik dat niet gedaan.

Hij heeft niet onder die tafel gekeken
Hij heeft daaronder niet gekeken
Hij heeft daar niet onder gekeken
Daaronder heeft hij niet gekeken
Daar heeft hij niet onder gekeken

Hij kan niet buiten zijn koffie.
Hij kan er niet buiten

Hij wist niet naar welk scherm hij kijken moest
Hij wist niet waarnaar hij kijken moest
Hij wist niet waar hij naar kijken moest

De stoptrein kwam na de sneltrein
De stoptrein kwam erna

Hij ging naar Amsterdam
Hij ging erheen
Hij ging ernaartoe

De kat sprong van de tafel
De kat sprong eraf

Dit is de weg langs dewelke we gekomen zijn ---> very stodgy. Smells like 19th century or so
Dit is de weg waarlangs we gekomen zijn

Dit is de weg via dewelke we gekomen zijn --> please avoid unless you want to sound very archaic
--- (no replacement possible)

Dat is al zo sinds de middeleeuwen
- (no replacement possible)

Zonder suiker
Erzonder --> In Flanders more acceptable than north of the rivers, but that may well change. In Dutch pronominal adverbs are pretty productive. In other Germanic languages they are fossils (like therefore = for this; herein, etc. hiermit damit in German etc. Even in Scandinavian languages there are examples, so they are pretty old.)

Another detail: it used to be impolite to apply pronominal replacement to persons. So:

Ik heb met hem op school gezeten
Ik heb ermee op school gezeten --> not really allowed.

But in colloquial Dutch you will hear it all the time. Especially in the plural where we have this outrageous hen/hun problem that was forced down our throats by a grammarian in the 1630s. All the grammarians and school teachers since then have not been able to force it into the spoken language.

The grammatical (i.e. written) standard is:
Ik heb met hen gesproken.

But don't be surprised if you never hear the (artificial) hen spoken. In stead people will opt for the clitic ze or the pronominal adverb ermee.
Ik heb met ze gesproken
Ik heb ermee gesproken

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by Bieneke » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:04 am

ngonyama wrote:Well yes. I did write an exercise, but it is gone! See viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4373 and click on the link.

Does that mean that all exercises have been scrapped???
No they haven't! I will restore the exercises this weekend!
Bieneke

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by Polly » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:14 am

Thanks Bieneke for your help and all the others who have contributed.
Best wishes
Polly

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by Polly » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:18 am

Also thanks to Ngonyama..

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by Bert » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:02 pm

ngonyama wrote:Hij was nergens bang van.
Ik zou liever Hij was nergens bang voor zeggen. ("De koningszoon die nergens bang voor was.")

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by Teodor » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:42 pm

Indeed. Although some sources consider 'bang van' to be equally correct, I would always advise second language learners to opt for the conservative form ('bang voor'), just to be on the safe side. (Except, of course, when the conservative form is considered to be too conservative by a clear majority, such as is the case with 'u is').

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by ngonyama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:19 am

Ik denk niet dat er veel verschil is tussen 'bang voor' en 'bang van'. Ik denk dat men in Vlaanderen het laatste (ten onrechte) niet aanvaardt omdat het een gallicisme zou zijn. Hypercorrectie denk ik.

https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/advies/b ... oor-onweer

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Re: pronominal adverbs

Post by inbox » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:56 am

ngonyama wrote:Ik denk niet dat er veel verschil is tussen 'bang voor' en 'bang van'. Ik denk dat men in Vlaanderen het laatste (ten onrechte) niet aanvaardt omdat het een gallicisme zou zijn. Hypercorrectie denk ik.

https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/advies/b ... oor-onweer
:-o
Ik wist niet dat bang van ook mogelijk is. Ik gebruik altijd bang voor.

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