Another form of you?

[voornaamwoorden]
A pronoun replaces a noun or another pronoun. E.g. 'he', 'which', or 'her'. There are different types of pronouns: personal, possessive, indefinite, relative... You can post your questions about Dutch pronouns here.
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Another form of you?

Post by EetSmakelijk » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:22 pm

I was reading something and came across another form of you please tell me there isn't a third! ;)
I believe it was spelled "gij" but not sure. Does anybody ever use this one? I couldn't find it in the pronouns on Dutchgrammar.com, but I am sure I ran into it somewhere...
I am just getting used to two of them, and I am hoping that this third one is only used rarely. ;)
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Post by Joke » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:32 pm

Hoi Es,

'Gij' (or 'ge') is an old-fashioned form of 'you' and is used very rarely in Dutch. It is, however, frequently used in Flemish - am I right?- and in some Dutch dialects. So, don't worry too much about it. It is enough if you are able to recognize it when you see it.

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Post by EetSmakelijk » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:40 pm

Dank je wel, Joke, that was quick!
Lol, I was afraid I would have to learn yet another one. ;)
Is it formal or informal?
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Post by Joke » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:59 pm

Graag gedaan.
Is it formal or informal?
I'm not sure, I hardly ever use it. I think it's formal in Dutch (I see it mostly in the Bible or in prayers, when someone speaks to God) and informal in dialect, but I don't know how it is used in Flemish.
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Post by Bieneke » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:04 pm

hoi E.S.,

In Flanders, gij is mostly used in an informal way but it can also be a 'polite you'. There is no strict distinction. It is only used in spoken Flemish.
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Post by EetSmakelijk » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:04 pm

Hmmm, I am wondering if maybe it is a bit like English "thou".
Is there an object form or is it used as both subject and object?
How about verb conjugations? You see, when I get interested in a word, there's no stopping me. ;)
I will definitely stick to "u" and "je" when addressing people. I am getting used to being addressed as "u" by Dutch websites. ;)
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Post by Wim » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:02 am

Hallo Eet Smakelijk,

You are right: Dutch gij and ge, of which the object form is u could very well be compared to English thou and thee, both in the use in formal situations like bible texts or prayers and in dialects.

For the northern Dutch speakers it's always kind of funny to hear a southerner address a child as u (as in ik heb u heus wel gezien!), as for the northerners u can only refer to formal speech, which is never used to little children.

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Post by user222 » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:41 pm

Aren't 'gij' and 'ge' in Flemish similar to 'jij' and 'je' in Dutch?

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Post by Wim » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:26 pm

Ja.

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Post by dirkmath » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:11 pm

They are similar but their grammatical forms are entirely different.


In the present tense 'gij/ge' always has a -t at the end:
gij spreekt / spreekt gij  (compare: jij spreekt / spreek jij)

Irregular verbs:
jij bent - gij zijt
jij mag - gij moogt


In the past tense 'gij/ge' has always -t with strong verbs:
jij loopt - jij liep
gij loopt - gij liept

But there are lot of exceptional rules:
When the strong verb has an a in the stem of the past tense, this a becomes long:
jij komt - jij kwam
gij komt - gij kwaamt

But when the stem ends on -d or -t the a remains short:
jij hebt - jij had
gij hebt - gij hadt

When the past plural has a d before the -en ending that doesn't appear in the singular, the gij-form ends in dt:
jij zou - wij zouden - gij zoudt
jij kon - wij konden - gij kondt

Irregular verb:
jij was - gij waart
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Post by Quetzal » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:39 am

dirkmath wrote:They are similar but their grammatical forms are entirely different.


In the present tense 'gij/ge' always has a -t at the end:
gij spreekt / spreekt gij  (compare: jij spreekt / spreek jij)

Irregular verbs:
jij bent - gij zijt
jij mag - gij moogt


In the past tense 'gij/ge' has always -t with strong verbs:
jij loopt - jij liep
gij loopt - gij liept

But there are lot of exceptional rules:
When the strong verb has an a in the stem of the past tense, this a becomes long:
jij komt - jij kwam
gij komt - gij kwaamt

But when the stem ends on -d or -t the a remains short:
jij hebt - jij had
gij hebt - gij hadt

When the past plural has a d before the -en ending that doesn't appear in the singular, the gij-form ends in dt:
jij zou - wij zouden - gij zoudt
jij kon - wij konden - gij kondt

Irregular verb:
jij was - gij waart
Erm. I agree with what you say about the present tense, as well as with the "waart". Possibly "zoudt", I'm not sure. All the rest, though, I've never heard of or used, so definitely not all Flemings use those special past tenses...

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Post by dirkmath » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:49 pm

Sorry, but these rules are not optional, neither are they dialectal forms.
If you want to use 'gij/ge' in correct Dutch you'll have to use these forms, you don't get to choose.

You can find the official Dutch grammar at the ANS-site (Algemene Nederlandse Spraakkunst):
http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~ans/
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Post by Quetzal » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:10 pm

dirkmath wrote:Sorry, but these rules are not optional, neither are they dialectal forms.
If you want to use 'gij/ge' in correct Dutch you'll have to use these forms, you don't get to choose.

You can find the official Dutch grammar at the ANS-site (Algemene Nederlandse Spraakkunst):
http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~ans/
The notions of "not-optional rules" and "official grammar" vs. "dialectical forms" are rather outdated in modern linguistics. I'm telling you that not all and indeed in my experience rather few if any (I do live in a student city after all, so we get people from all parts of Flanders) Flemings use the forms you name. Which would mean they're not too useful for foreigners to know.

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Post by Bieneke » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:44 pm

Thanks, Dirk, for your explanation.

I think you (Dirk and Quetzal) are talking about two different things: How it should be and how it is used. In the e-ANS, I have not found anything about the past tense forms connected with 'ge' or 'gij' but I did find some confirmation of what Dirk wrote on website of the Taalunie (official Language Union):

Verleden tijd onregelmatige werkwoorden: http://woordenlijst.org/leidraad/11/5/
Gij kwam/gij kwaamt: http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/344
Gij had/gij hadt http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/343

There really are official rules for conjugating verbs after 'ge' or 'gij' .

I think that the fact that people often violate these rules does not immediately disqualify them as 'regional'. I thought it was quite a funny remark as the very use of 'ge' and 'gij' is already considered regional. ;-) Below, I copied a paragraph from http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/344:
De Taalunie wrote:Het gebruik van ge/gij behoort tot de verheven stijl of is regionaal bepaald (het wordt in grote delen van België en in het zuiden van Nederland, vooral in Noord-Brabant gebruikt). De daarbij horende verledentijdsvormen van het werkwoord gelden als archaïsch. In enkele gevallen kan bovendien verwarring optreden met de vorm van de tegenwoordige tijd van een ander werkwoord: ge braakt (van braken), ge zaagt (van zagen), ge staakt (van staken). Om deze redenen worden de bedoelde combinaties vaak vermeden of worden de werkwoordsvormen ten onrechte vervangen door die welke bij u horen (ge kwam, ge zag enz.).

I have no opinion about whether it is useful to learn these rules. I suppose you can perfectly do without this knowledge but as an enquiring Dutch learner living in Flanders, you may wonder if there are any rules or guidelines for using 'ge' and 'gij'. After all, you hear it every day but there is no mention of it in your grammar books and your NT2 teacher tells you it is not an important thing to learn. If I were that student, just being told there are no rules (because they are archaic or outdated), would not really satisfy me.
Bieneke

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Post by dirkmath » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:00 pm

De link naar de ANS-pagina is:
http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~ans/e-ans/02/03 ... /body.html

De bedoelde tekst is:
Als gij/ge onderwerp is, wordt in enkel- en meervoud de enkelvoudsvorm + t gebruikt. Eindigt de enkelvoudsvorm op een korte a gevolgd door één medeklinker die geen d of t is, dan wordt die a een lange a (dubbel geschreven). Voorbeelden: gij riept, ge vondt, ge kwaamt, ge badt Deze werkwoordsvormen worden overigens in nog sterkere mate dan de voornaamwoorden als niet-standaardtalig aangevoeld en daarom wel vermeden of ten onrechte vervangen door de vormen die bij het onderwerp u horen.
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