afmaken

Een hoekje voor absolute beginners. Hier schrijf je alleen eenvoudige zinnen en over eenvoudige onderwerpen / A corner for absolute beginners. Here, you only write simple phrases and about simple topics.
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When correcting Dutch texts, (most) vraagbaken use a colour code to distinguish between different types of mistakes. See also: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=753&p=5506#p5506
ngonyama
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Re: afmaken

Post by ngonyama » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:54 pm

What exactly do you disagree with, Frank? The fact that the separated form is more common than the unseparated one?

I am sorry, but what exactly do you want people like Iouri to do? To not be able to understand 80% of those websites because you want to impose your 'perfect' version of the Dutch language on him?

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Bert
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Re: afmaken

Post by Bert » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:08 pm

Iouri wrote:It is already out of my league, but I am watching for the solution
Both versions are correct. So it's not an issue of "correct or not correct". I'm afraid you have to learn both word orders. The discussion is only about the frequency of the one and of the other.

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Re: afmaken

Post by BrutallyFrank » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:11 pm

ngonyama wrote:What exactly do you disagree with, Frank? The fact that the separated form is more common than the unseparated one?

I am sorry, but what exactly do you want people like Iouri to do? To not be able to understand 80% of those websites because you want to impose your 'perfect' version of the Dutch language on him?
Let me start by saying that I don't like the aggresive tone of your response. I'm not imposing anything on anyone. But if you present something like a fact, then doing a little Google search and counting hits just doesn't cut it. And I tried to explain why ... that's all.

Iouri's unseparated form was perfectly correct. And so is the separated one. As Bert says: that isn't the point of discussion here.
Should Iouri learn both word orders? Maybe ... only one could be enough. But I think it's only fair to let people be AWARE that both are correct and in use. I leave the choice to them. So no one is imposing any 'perfect' version of the Dutch language on anyone.

If the separated or unseparated version is more common, is actually a non-issue.
"Moenie worrie nie, alles sal reg kom" (maar hy het nie gesê wanneer nie!)

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Re: afmaken

Post by ngonyama » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:03 am

I checked the ANS http://ans.ruhosting.nl/e-ans/21/06/02/02/body.html

Both forms are correct and yes, there is a geographic difference. In the South (Flanders, Limburg) the unseparated form is more usual, in the North the separated form. As I am from a few miles above the Moerdijk that makes perfect sense.

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Re: afmaken

Post by ngonyama » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:23 am

?

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Re: afmaken

Post by Iouri » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:00 am

I found in the grammar book:
"If the verb has a separable prefix which normally stands at the end of the clause, e.g. hij gaat weg, the two are re-united in a sub-clause and written as one word
... dat hij weggaat"

Apparently there are no strict rules in Dutch language.
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Bert
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Re: afmaken

Post by Bert » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:55 am

Iouri wrote:Apparently there are no strict rules in Dutch language.
I wouldn't say that. :)
Iouri wrote:... dat hij weggaat"
It cannot be "... dat hij gaat weg". There is on the other hand a variation with "... dat hij kan weggaan" and "... dat hij weg kan gaan".

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Re: afmaken

Post by Iouri » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:58 am

I am not arguing, I am just quoting the grammar book
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Re: afmaken

Post by Bert » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:04 am

Iouri wrote:I am not arguing, I am just quoting the grammar book
That's okay, but the rule which you quote from your textbook was questioned by nobody.

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Re: afmaken

Post by Iouri » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:06 am

:(
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Re: afmaken

Post by Bert » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:09 am

Bert wrote:It cannot be "... dat hij gaat weg". There is on the other hand a variation with "... dat hij kan weggaan" and "... dat hij weg kan gaan".
I must add, in the spoken language it's usually without "gaan": "... dat hij weg kan."
Last edited by Bert on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: afmaken

Post by Iouri » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:16 am

Thank you, Bert
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Re: afmaken

Post by ngonyama » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:55 am

I can well understand your frustration, Iouri. The truth is that separability is pretty complicated. Let me try to summarize.


Finite forms are separated in direct clauses:

Hij liep snel weg
Hij doet toch niet mee
Hij maakte het werkstuk af.

Finite forms recombine in dependent clauses:

Ik zei toch dat hij snel wegliep
Ik weet niet of hij wel meedoet
Ze zei dat hij het werkstuk niet afmaakt.

The present participle is not separated
De weglopende man

The past participle typically includes -ge- (i.e. in a sense it is separated)
Hij is weggelopen
Hij heeft meegedaan
Hij heeft het afgemaakt

The infinitive is usually not separated, e.g. in the future:
Hij zal weglopen
Hij zal niet meedoen
Hij zal het morgen afmaken.

But in dependent clauses there is sometimes a break up:
Ik denk dat hij weg zal lopen - ik denk dat hij zal weglopen

This is also true for combinations with modal verbs:
Hij mag niet weglopen - Ik zeg dat je niet weg mag lopen / Ik zeg dat je niet mag weglopen

This can also happen in direct clauses in the perfect tense:
Hij had weg kunnen lopen - hij had kunnen weglopen

The "te"-form of the infinite separates:
Hij dreigde weg te lopen
Hij zat het af te maken

I suppose I could add the construction with 'aan het', but people might well disagree
Hij was weg aan het lopen - hij was aan het weglopen

(Actually I think we tend to avoid this construction with separables mostly.)

Is this exhaustive? Probably not, but probably enough for you now.

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Re: afmaken

Post by Iouri » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:16 pm

more than enough

thanx
Iouri

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