Ge/gij/gullie

"Wablief" of "Wat zegt u", "zeker en vast" of "vast en zeker"? Vlaams en Hollands zijn beide Nederlands en toch zijn er veel verschillen. Dit is het forum waar je vragen kunt stellen over het Vlaams.
hahannes
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Post by hahannes » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:29 pm

el topo wrote:Bedankt, Evilbu! Ook voor de links.

Ik ben geïnteresseerd in Vlaamse dialecten. Het is natuurlijk te vroeg om deze soorten dingen to leren, aangezien mijn Nederlands nog niet goed genoeg is, maar ik kan moeilijk wachten.
Het gebruik van ge/gij heeft op zichzelf bekeken niets te maken met dialecten, ook al wordt in de meeste Zuid-Nederlandse dialecten ge/gij gebruikt. Het was zelfs perfecte standaardtaal in België tot de ABN-campagnes in de jaren '50/'60 ervoor zorgden dat het gebruik ervan werd veroordeeld en als boers werd bestempeld (dit dankzij het imperialisme vanuit het Noorden, met collaboratie van de Antwerpenaren en andere Brabanders). Het Nederlands in België en haar dialecten hebben sterk te lijden gehad onder de druk vanuit de Randstad en lijden momenteel nog veel erger onder de druk van het Antwerps/Brabants. Gevolg is dat weinig mensen nog echt dialect spreken, maar slechts een lelijke mengvorm die als "tussentaal" wordt bestempeld (sommige mensen die trots zijn op dit misbaksel - meestal Brabanders - noemen het zelfs "Vlaams").

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Re: Ge/gij/gullie

Post by BrutallyFrank » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:12 pm

Aangezien Amsterdam opeens belangrijker werd dan Antwerpen zal de invloed vanuit die streek inderdaad groot zijn geweest. Maar dat zie je maar al te vaak: wiens brood men eet diens woord men spreekt!
"Moenie worrie nie, alles sal reg kom" (maar hy het nie gesê wanneer nie!)

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Re: Ge/gij/gullie

Post by Appelblauwzeegroen » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:17 pm

Hi all,

New to this board and I have a question. My background is rather odd in that my mother is from West Flanders and has spoken to me in Flemish her whole life. However, I have lived my entire life in the UK; so my mother tongue is English. I can understand West Vlaamse dialect fluently, but I struggle to speak it as I have never spoken Flemish in my life. It's insane; half my brain understands it fluently, the other struggles to put a simple sentence together. I'm currently trying to learn Dutch via DuoLingo.

My question; West Vlaams (or rather my mother's dialect specifically) does incredibly soft g's; so much so they are indistinguishable to h's. So the Ge/gij actually sounds like he/hij. So how do you distinguish when speaking when using gij and hij? Especially when the dialect has a knack of not pronouncing the t's at the end of words. Is it just a matter of context? "hij doe da nie" --> Gij doet dat niet of hij doet dat niet?

Thanks!

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Re: Ge/gij/gullie

Post by Teodor » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:11 pm

I'm not a West-Vlaming, but it is always been my understanding that:
- the g in West-Flemish dialect isn't just 'almost a h', but actually often pronounced as Standard Dutch h;
- that West-Flemish 'suffers' from h-deletion, especially at the beginning of words (in other words: that, where one would pronounce a h in Standard Dutch, one tends simply not to pronounce this sound); (so schematically: Standard Dutch -> West Flemish: g -> h and h -> ø)
- that wat became an 'ij' in Standard Dutch is often pronounced as an 'ie' (or even 'iej'?) in West Flemish, meaning that 'hij' is pronounced more or less as 'ie';
- that whereas some West-Flemish dialects have been exposed to Brabantian influences and have therefore adopted the originally Brabantian personal pronoun 'gij' (more or less pronounced as 'hie'), others have concerved 'jij' (or rather 'jie').
Real West-Flemish speakers should be able to confirm or deny all this.

If this is correct, I think there should be little confusion between 'jij' ('hie/jie') and 'hij' ('ie') amongst West-Vlamingen, although I imagine barbarians from Brussels like me moving to West Flanders could easilly mix things up. I also guess that the exact way of pronouncing the various phonemes depends on the exact dialect, and also perhaps the exposure of the person to Standard Dutch or 'tussentaal' (the mixture of Standard Dutch and Brabantian dialect used more and more in the media and often called 'Flemish').

Also, West-Flemish speakers (amongst others) have a tendency to 'double' the personal pronoun. See for example here: http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/West-Vlaam ... rdige_tijd: "ge kwopt gie", "ne kwopt ie", presumably adding to the clarity.

Note incidentally that West-Flemish speakers, when speaking Standard Dutch, not seldomly try to imitate a 'hard g' (as found in the North of the Netherlands and in Suriname), apparently considering this variety easier to pronounce than the 'soft g' usually associated with Belgian Dutch. The prominent politician Johan van de Lanotte is an often cited example. (When I say 'soft g', I don't mean the West-Flemish h or h-like variety, but the variety found in most of Belgium and the South of the Netherlands.)

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