F-V-(W) | CH-G | S-Z

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nyong
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F-V-(W) | CH-G | S-Z

Post by nyong » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:18 am

Hi!

Most of the Flemish speakers I've heard made an easily noticeable voiced pronunciation of V and Z (in opposition to the voiceless F and S, respectively)
The word Vlaams for example sounds much more like vlaams instead of flaams to English ears.

My questions:

1) Does this mean that the pronunciation of V and W often merge in Flemish, considering that Dutch W sounds like English V?
2) Do you really distinguish G and CH in your pronunciation, with G being voiced and CH voiceless?

Groetjes

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Re: F-V-(W) | CH-G | S-Z

Post by Grytolle » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:47 pm

nyong wrote:1) Does this mean that the pronunciation of V and W often merge in Flemish, considering that Dutch W sounds like English V?
Flemish w sounds like the English one but less rounded. (also in Belgian standard Dutch)
nyong wrote:2) Do you really distinguish G and CH in your pronunciation, with G being voiced and CH voiceless
Yes, but note the sandhi-rules that affect pronounciation in word-final and word-initial position:
ik weet dat gij => kweeta-chij
gij doe toch altijd zo dom => gij doe tog-altij-(t)so dom
:-)

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Re: F-V-(W) | CH-G | S-Z

Post by nyong » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:04 am

Dank u Grytolle! Du bist toll! :)

I (still) find it hard to distinguish the voiced g and the voiceless ch when I hear them, much less to reproduce them myself. But I'm going to listen to more Flemish clips. :)

Btw, isn't it supposed to be gij doet?
Grytolle wrote:gij doe toch altijd zo dom => gij doe tog-altij-(t)so dom

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Re: F-V-(W) | CH-G | S-Z

Post by Quetzal » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:28 am

nyong wrote:
I (still) find it hard to distinguish the voiced g and the voiceless ch when I hear them, much less to reproduce them myself. But I'm going to listen to more Flemish clips. :)

Btw, isn't it supposed to be gij doet?
Grytolle wrote:gij doe toch altijd zo dom => gij doe tog-altij-(t)so dom
It should help that there are hardly any "minimal pairs" (words that are different in only one sound and identical otherwise) with g and ch, seeing how the Dutch don't make the distinction much, and it would get confusing. So if you can't hear the difference, that shouldn't be much of a problem.

It is "gij doet", but Grytolle was talking about spoken language, where the T isn't necessarily pronounced - in his example, there's a t following, and it's true we don't pronounce it twice. On the other hand, if you leave the "toch" out, you'd get something like "Gij doe-d-altijd zo dom", pronunciation-wise, so it's not like the final sound in "gij doet" is never pronounced.

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Re: F-V-(W) | CH-G | S-Z

Post by Grytolle » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:59 am

Quetzal wrote:It is "gij doet", but Grytolle was talking about spoken language, where the T isn't necessarily pronounced - in his example, there's a t following, and it's true we don't pronounce it twice. On the other hand, if you leave the "toch" out, you'd get something like "Gij doe-d-altijd zo dom", pronunciation-wise, so it's not like the final sound in "gij doet" is never pronounced.
This is a Brabantic phenomenon which is quite expansive (probably because East-Flemish and West-Flemish(?) have similar patterns for deleting the -d/-t but for other verbs):

Athematic verbs (infinitive ending -n instead of -en (where the -e- is a "theme vowel"); doen, zijn, gaan, staan, zien + derivations like verstaan) have this pattern:
ik doen ("doe" is used too of course, but that's standard language and East-Flemish (and some neighbouring West-Flemish); "doen" is Limburgian, West-Flemish and Brabantic)
gij doe{d}
hij doe{d}
wij doen
gijle doe{d}
zij doen

{d} is only pronounced before vowels (like Quetzal said), if a fricative (z, zj, v, g) follows, it causes loss of voice: "gij doe' vrêselijk stom" = [ɣɛ: du: friəsələk stɔm]

inversion of "hij"
with emphasis: doed hij [du:dɛ:] (or [du: t(h)ɛ:] because of the h or standard Dutch influence)
without emphasis: doed 'em [du:təm] (everything gets devoiced before 'em, 'er and 'ie (which is hardly ever used))

inversion of "gij"
with emphasis: doede gij (or inspired by old fashioned written dutch and/or the imperative: "doet gij" ([du:tçɛ:])/"doe' gij" ([du: çɛ:]))
without emphasis: doede (or inspired by old fashioned written dutch: "doet ge" ([du:tçə]), or by analogy "doe' ge" ([du: çə]))

Lastly, you sometimes hear typically West-Flemish forms where -je is used instead of -e: doedje gij/doe je gij... I'm not sure if they would characterize them as something they normally use when speaking supraregional Flemish or rather a dialect trait that just sometimes shines through (like if someone from Antwerp would occasionally say "ik doeng" instead of "ik doen" or "ik doe")



edit:
it's always "hij is" (or dialectally es)
"ik ben" (East-Flemish + Limburgs + Standard Language influence) is used next to "ik zijn"
"gij bent" only occurs in the language of children or adolescents (confusion with the propagated "jij bent")
"jullie" is used more than any Flemish alternatives (like I said somewhere else) and then uses the standard Dutch conjugation "jullie zijn" but "gijle zij{d}"
Last edited by Grytolle on Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:-)

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Re: F-V-(W) | CH-G | S-Z

Post by Grytolle » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:02 pm

If your Dutch is good, you could also read this:
http://www.vlaamsetaal.be/artikel/127/d ... erkwoorden

and its discussion:
http://www.vlaamsetaal.be/forum/draad/192
:-)

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