Some hints to understand Flemish

"Wablief" of "Wat zegt u", "zeker en vast" of "vast en zeker"? Vlaams en Hollands zijn beide Nederlands en toch zijn er veel verschillen. Dit is het forum waar je vragen kunt stellen over het Vlaams.
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Some hints to understand Flemish

Post by evilbu » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:43 pm

Hello,

I would like to stress once more that Flemish is NO LANGUAGE. We speak Dutch, and if most Flemings speak English and French, it would pretty weird if they didn't speak proper Dutch. There are no books in Flemish.
Anyone who learns Dutch should get around in Flanders without any problems!

However, if you want to UNDERSTAND a Flemish conversation, these tips might be interesting :

1. second person singular :

subject :"je/jij" isn"t used very often----> "ge/gij"
indirect object : "je/jou"-->"u"
direct object : "je/jou"-->"u"

"jouw/je" isn't used very often----->"uw", which isn't formal at all! :-P




But how to conjugate the verb when using "ge/gij"? Wel for the "onvoltooid tegenwoordige tijd"="simple present tense" you can use the "hij" form as an example, it works in MOST cases.

"je werkt"--> "ge werkt"
"werk je?"--->"werkt ge?"

But there are some exceptions!!!
"je bent"->"ge zijt"
"je kan"-->"ge kunt"
are some of them

Now the "onvoltooid verleden tijd" is pretty "advanced", I wouldn't spend that much time on it. But do know this :

"je was"-->"ge waart"
"je zou"-->"ge zoudt"
"je werd"-->"ge werdt"
"je had"--->"ge hadt"


Some more examples :

"Ik sla je"-->" Ik sla u"
"Dat is je boek"--->"Dat is uw boek"
"Ik geef je een boek"-->"Ik geef u een boek"


2. "ne(n)" is an indefinite article, replacing "een", but it can only be used for masculine nouns! "nen" is used when the next noun starts with a vowel
"een man"---"ne man"
"een aap"--->"nen aap"

As some of you might know, masculine and feminine nouns are practically the same, they both use "die","deze","de",...
However, some Flemings have a slight advantage here :D because of their dialect, our "guts" can tell us whether or not a noun is masculine. :twisted:

3. "diene(n)" can replace "die" as a pronoun, again only for masculine nouns though!!
The rule with the "n" is the same
"die aap"-->"dienen aap"
"die man"-->"diene man"


4. dropping letters
Sometimes letters are dropped.

"dat"-->"da"
"niet"-->"nie"
"voor"-->"vo"
"maar"--->"ma"/"mo" (note , usually you pronounce the "a" like the vowel in "kat", but the "o"like the vowel in "hond")
"moet"-->"moe"
"hij"--->"ij"
.....

"maar dat is niet waar!"---> "ma da is nie waar!"
"Ik ken dat boek niet"-->"Ik ken da boek nie!"
...

-------
5. weird :-P "phenomena" between the verb and subject in inversion, sometimes the "ge" is replaced by "de" and sometimes "te" :

"vind je?"-->"vinde"?
"vind je?"--->"vinde gij"?
"moet je?"---->"moet ge?"--->"moete/moede?"
"wou je?"--->"woude gij?"
"wou je niet?"--->"woude niet?"
"weet je?"--->"weet gij?"-->"weete?"/"weete gij?"

-------
6. repeating a personal pronoun when it's a subject

This can be confusing, but it does happen. Sometimes when the repeated pronoun comes right after the verb some things are changed/added to make a bridge

"Je bent aan het liegen"-->"Ge zijt gij aan het liegen."
"Ik wou dat niet."--->"Ik wou kik da nie."
"We willen wel helpen."-->"We willen wij wel helpen."




-------
7. Diminutives
Diminutives are often different in Flemish. Maybe Bieneke is able to give explicit rules, for now I can only tell you how to recognize them. By the way, for now the point is UNDERSTANDING flemish, not speaking it. :D

The endings usually are -ke,-ske. Usually, when the "normal" diminutive form ends in "etje", you have to replace that by "eke"

lampje--> lampke
mannetje-->manneke (now you understand where the word "mannequin" comes from :twisted: :-D )
boekje--->boekske
boompje--->boomke
-------

8. the definite article "de" is replaced with "den", but as far as I know, you can ONLY do this when the noun is masculine and starts with a vowel!!

de auto---> den auto
de aap---> den aap
----

As you can see, it's pretty complicated, and there are no real rules. Keep in mind that this is some sort of "tussentaal". I am in favor of dumping this dialect and working together with the Dutch to unify our language, because if we don't stick together we'll be crushed by the three surrounding stronger languages. :x
There might be some things that I have forgotten and that I will still add. Maybe some things are wrong. Maybe Bieneke will move this? Or make this part of the grammar section one day? :lol:
We'll see!
Last edited by evilbu on Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by evilbu » Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:08 pm

Okay I'll add another hint! :D


EDIT : I moved it to the original post. I want to make this as clear as possible.
Last edited by evilbu on Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Quetzal » Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:48 pm

Addition to your #4: the fairly frequent "Kweenie". Which is a contraction of the rather longer sentence "Ik weet het niet".

More:

- The word "ze" that is sometimes added to the end of a sentence for added emphasis, often when stating something that you think (or know for sure) your interlocutor might not believe, or might disagree with.

Examples: "Echt waar ze!"
"Ja ma(ar), da(t) is echt ne (een) goeie (goede) jongen, ze!"

- Quite popular among Flemish youths nowadays: the assertion "da(t) is" (not followed by any kind of predicate, just those two words), meaning that something is indeed true. Can be used to express agreement, but also for instance when the other person doesn't believe you and you insist that it is in fact true. Sometimes combined with the previous one.

Examples: "Ja, da is!"
"Da is, ze, da is"



I have to stress here, though, that firstly, none of those are EVER to be used in written form (although you will find that they are used by a lot of people on MSN, virtually the only instant messaging program used in Belgium and the Netherlands), and secondly, they are meant to enhance your understanding of every-day Flemish, not to encourage anyone to speak like this, and certainly not in an even remotely formal context - at school, to older people, and so on (older people might well talk like this themselves, but even so).

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Post by Tom » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:44 pm

Cool topic and much appeciated. :)
Groetjes
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Post by Leeuwin » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:22 am

Dag iedereen,
Ik ben zo blij dat je maakt een onderwerp voor vlaams regels. I houd van zien verschillen tussen Vlaams en Nederlands. Alhoewel zowel Vlanderen en Nederlands de zelfde taal ze spreken hebben allebei hun uniciteit aan de taal.

I am so glad you made a topic over Flemish rules. I like seeing the differences between Flemish and Dutch. Even though Flanders and the Netherlands speak the same language they both have their uniqueness in the language.

Verbeter me als ik verkeerd ben. Ik hoorde dat wanneer iemand het Nederlands van Nederland dat spreekt wanneer zij woorden van een andere taal lenen die zij neigen om Engelse woorden te lenen. Maar wanneer iemand Vlaams spreekt gebruiken zij Franse woorden.

Correct me if I am wrong. I heard that when one speaks Dutch from the Netherlands that when they borrow words from another language they tend to borrow English words. But when one speaks Flemish they use French words.

For example:
Flemish > confiture > french word meaning > Jam
Dutch > they use the English word Jam.

There is also a difference in the way the 'R' is pronounced between Flemish and Dutch. In Flemish the 'R' is pronounced more in the tonge. When you pronounce the 'R' the tonge moves up and down vigorously. In Dutch the 'R' is sounds more like the English 'R'. Its hard to explain, the sound comes from the throat. In my opinon just listening on how the 'R' is pronounced, can help distingish if the person is from the Netherlands or from Belgium. But I may be wrong.

These are just some difference I found in comparing Flemish to Dutch.

Groetjes Leeuwin :)

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Post by Quetzal » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:45 am

Leeuwin wrote:Dag iedereen,
Ik ben zo blij dat je maakt een onderwerp voor vlaams Vlaamse regels. I houd van zien verschillen Ik houd ervan verschillen te zien tussen Vlaams en Nederlands. Alhoewel zowel Vlaanderen en Nederlands de zelfde dezelfde taal ze spreken hebben allebei beiden hun uniciteit aan in de taal.


Verbeter me als ik verkeerd ben. Ik hoorde dat wanneer iemand iemand die het Nederlands van Nederland dat spreekt, wanneer zij hij woorden van een andere taal lenen leent, die zij neigen geneigd is om Engelse woorden te lenen. Maar wanneer iemand Vlaams spreekt gebruiken zij Franse woorden.
Dat klopt wel, maar aan de andere kant gebruiken sommige Nederlanders Franse woorden, zoals bijvoorbeeld svp (afkorting voor s'il vous plait, "alstublieft") of jus d'orange ("appelsiensap").

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Post by Snoezig » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:25 pm


Dat klopt wel, maar aan de andere kant gebruiken sommige Nederlanders Franse woorden, zoals bijvoorbeeld svp (afkorting voor s'il vous plait, "alstublieft") of jus d'orange ("appelsiensap").
That fits in nicely with what I have read: that in the Netherlands, a French (or French-derived term) is often used where in Flanders, a Dutch term would be preferred, and that actually more French terms are floating around in the Netherlands than in Flanders. But of course I can't think of any examples :o and I have no idea to what extent the comparison I've seen elsewhere is accurate. Or not.

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Post by Joke » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:14 pm

Quetzal wrote:Addition to your #4: the fairly frequent "Kweenie". Which is a contraction of the rather longer sentence "Ik weet het niet".

- Quite popular among Flemish youths nowadays: the assertion "da(t) is" (not followed by any kind of predicate, just those two words), meaning that something is indeed true. Can be used to express agreement, but also for instance when the other person doesn't believe you and you insist that it is in fact true. Sometimes combined with the previous one.

Examples: "Ja, da is!"
"Da is, ze, da is"
These are no typical Flemish things, as we use 'kweenie' and 'da is!' in The Netherlands as well.

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Post by Quetzal » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:43 pm

Joke wrote:These are no typical Flemish things, as we use 'kweenie' and 'da is!' in The Netherlands as well.
Joke
Fair enough.

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Post by evilbu » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:39 am

I added a new hint : hint 5 :D

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Re: Some hints to understand Flemish

Post by Ajax » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:10 pm

maybe a dumb question...how are the g's pronounced in flemish? it's softer in belgium right?

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Re: Some hints to understand Flemish

Post by BrutallyFrank » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:56 pm

http://rudhar.com/fonetics/cxch.htm

I just found this explanation, which seems to cover the differences quite good. Although I'm not that thrilled with the sound bites, the writer does admit that it's not quite like a native speaker would say it. But it does sound a bit like it without the usual exaggeration ...
"Moenie worrie nie, alles sal reg kom" (maar hy het nie gesê wanneer nie!)

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Re: Some hints to understand Flemish

Post by Grytolle » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:23 pm

evilbu wrote:There are no books in Flemish.
Unfortunately! :(
evilbu wrote: But there are some exceptions!!!
"je bent"->"ge zijt"
"je kan"-->"ge kunt"
are some of them[/quote]"je kunt" is better than "je kan" though >: )
Gij-forms generally uses a plural stem, which is completely logical, since gij used to be a plural:
kunnen => kun-nen -> kunt
evilbu wrote: "je was"-->"ge waart"
"je zou"-->"ge zoudt"
"je werd"-->"ge werdt"
"je had"--->"ge hadt"
The obvious conclusion, the forms (almost) always end in -t. Also note that they are all made out of plural stems: (zouden, waren, werden, hadden + t) - this isn't that consequent in imperfect tense though, which is why both "gij laagt" and "gij lagt" can be heard (unfortunately also "ge lag", because of confusion with jij).

evilbu wrote: "Ik geef je een boek"-->"Ik geef u een boek"
You will very often hear "nen boek", because "book" is actually masculine in Flanders, however "taaltuiniers" have successfully made people say "het boek".
evilbu wrote: 2. "ne(n)" is an indefinite article, replacing "een", but it can only be used for masculine nouns! "nen" is used when the next noun starts with a vowel
Also before d, t, b and h. According to some unconfirmed sources, it can also happen before r.
evilbu wrote: 3. "diene(n)" can replace "die" as a pronoun, again only for masculine nouns though!!
I'm not sure, but I think the form "dieë(n)" is more common (commonly spelled dieje(n))

evilbu wrote: "dat"-->"da"
"niet"-->"nie"
"voor"-->"vo"
"maar"--->"ma"/"mo" (note , usually you pronounce the "a" like the vowel in "kat", but the "o"like the vowel in "hond")
"moet"-->"moe"
"hij"--->"ij"
wa for what
voor is often veur
the final t is oftne dropped in staat, gaat, ziet, etc. That is, verbs with an infinitive ending in -n.
evilbu wrote: "maar dat is niet waar!"---> "ma da is nie waar!"
Also:
"dat is" (pronounced daddis)
"da's"
evilbu wrote: "Ik ken dat boek niet"-->"Ik ken da boek nie!"
or: "diejen boek ni"
evilbu wrote: 5. weird :-P "phenomena" between the verb and subject in inversion, sometimes the "ge" is replaced by "de" and sometimes "te" :

"vind je?"-->"vinde"?
"vind je?"--->"vinde gij"?
"moet je?"---->"moet ge?"--->"moete/moede?"
"wou je?"--->"woude gij?"
"wou je niet?"--->"woude niet?"
"weet je?"--->"weet gij?"-->"weete?"/"weete gij?"
I call this "the suffix conjugation". That -de is a restant of the old form "du", which was used before gij. Anyway, on to the details!

Present tense:
de regel voor het presens in al zijn schônheid wrote: [plural-stem] + de <- after voiced sounds (that is all vowels + consonants not in 't kofschipʃ)
[plural-stem] + te <- after voiceless sounds (t, k, f, s, ch, p, sj)
kan (s.), kunnen (p.)
-> kun + de => kunde gij

ben/is (s.), zijn (p.)
-> zij + de => zijde gij (also, the shortened: zedde gij)

ga (s.), gaan (p.)
-> ga + de => gade gij

hebben
-> heb + de => hebde gij (also the shortened: hedde gij)

vinden
-> vind + de => vindde gij


The imperfect:
de regel voor het presens in al zijn schoônheid wrote: [stem to be used] + de <- after voiced sounds (that is all vowels + consonants not in 't kofschipʃ)
[stem to be used] + te <- after voiceless sounds (t, k, f, s, ch, p, sj)
Sometimes the plural stem, sometimes the singular stem, is used. I don't know any general rule, eventhough I prefer the plural when there is an option.

was (s.), waren (p.)
waar + de => waarde gij (you will never hear "wasde gij", that much is sure :D)

vond (s.), vonden (p.)
vond + de => vondde gij

zag (s.), zagen (p.)
zaag + de => zaagde gij
or:
zag + de => zagde gij (it could be argued, though, that this is just a shortened version of "zaagde gij", rather than a systematic change to singular stems)

gaf (s.), gaven (p.)
gaf + de => gafde gij
or, the probably less common plural stem use:
gaaf + de => gaafde gij

etc.

There is no reason to double the consonant in for example: denken, dacht/dachten, because that "ch" is a changed pronounciation of "nk" (?).
denken:
dankten
-> dachten

The old form was often:
ik dachte
gij dachtet
wij dachten

..so as you can see it's a weak-and-strong preterite-form, with both a dental-suffix (-de/-te), and a vowel-change (e=>a) - meaning the real stem could be said to be "dach". So according to the rule:
dach + te => dachte gij

mogen:
moch + te => mochte gij

willen, wouden...
ou used to be "ol", wolden, which shows us that it contains a dental suffix:

woude gij
niet: woudde gij

complete list of irregular verbs with dental suffixes(?)
plachte gij
brachte gij
kochte gij
zochte gij
wrochte gij (werken)
mochte gij
(dochte gij)
gerochte gij (geraken)

moeste gij
dorste gij

zeide gij
woude gij
zoude gij

...this misses dialectal forms like "koste gij" (konde gij), which certainly is a weakness in this context :P
I ignore "begon(de)" and any similar forms where the suffix is completly gone (it's begonnen, not begonden in plural)



but:
vechten => vochten <- no dental suffix, just a vowel change. Therefore the stem is: "vocht".
vocht + te => vochtte gij

Note that the same forms are used for gijle/gelle/golle/gulder/whatever-people-use-instead-of-jullie---no-standard-form-has-emerged:
"zijde golle daar blij mee?"

This can't be done with weak verbs. This is never said:
"leerdede (gij)?"
evilbu wrote: 6. repeating a personal pronoun when it's a subject

This can be confusing, but it does happen. Sometimes when the repeated pronoun comes right after the verb some things are changed/added to make a bridge

"Je bent aan het liegen"-->"Ge zijt gij aan het liegen."
"Ik wou dat niet."--->"Ik wou kik da nie."
"We willen wel helpen."-->"We willen wij wel helpen."
I hear this is something spreading from Antwerpen.

evilbu wrote:7. Diminutives
Diminutives are often different in Flemish. Maybe Bieneke is able to give explicit rules, for now I can only tell you how to recognize them. By the way, for now the point is UNDERSTANDING flemish, not speaking it. :D

The endings usually are -ke,-ske. Usually, when the "normal" diminutive form ends in "etje", you have to replace that by "eke"

lampje--> lampke
mannetje-->manneke (now you understand where the word "mannequin" comes from :twisted: :-D )
boekje--->boekske
boompje--->boomke
The rules are very different from -tje(s), but atleast it's not heard to passively interpret the -ke's.

Note that the n in -ken always is pronounced before vowels - which also is done with the -en of infinitives and plurals (and probably also all weak imperfects, including the singulars - "gisteren leerden ik zwemmen"
evilbu wrote: 8. the definite article "de" is replaced with "den", but as far as I know, you can ONLY do this when the noun is masculine and starts with a vowel!!

de auto---> den auto
de aap---> den aap
The -n disappears according to the same rules as for "nen", which you implied :) Same goes for dieën/dienen too, of course.
evilbu wrote:As you can see, it's pretty complicated, and there are no real rules.
There are no norms, no, but it's quite uniform - however not always consequently used. People tend to sometimes use AN-pronouns (ne man => een man) etc.
evilbu wrote:I am in favor of dumping this dialect and working together with the Dutch to unify our language, because if we don't stick together we'll be crushed by the three surrounding stronger languages. :x
Bullshit. The minimal risk of "being crushed of stornger languages" won't get any smaller if you try to speak more AN-ic. Dutch people speak more and more Dutchy, and Flemish people speak ever more Flemishy, and there's no sense making reason to hold back this natural process (There are two different language-centra. Netherlands: Randstad, Flanders: Antwerpen and the rest of the Brabantic area - large parts of the Flemish intelligentia - often brainwashed Dutch-students :lol: - try to make Randstad be the norm for Flanders too though).

Just learn to understand eachother without adjusting, the differences aren't bigger than that a Nederlander can learn to understand everything in no time (and vice-versa, but that isn't needed because of Flemish people being exposed to nothern dutch to a high degree via media etc).
evilbu wrote:There might be some things that I have forgotten and that I will still add. Maybe some things are wrong. Maybe Bieneke will move this? Or make this part of the grammar section one day? :lol:
We'll see!
You made a very nice job, with very few errors^^Making it a part of the grammar section would be awesome, but I wouldn't count on it before the Flemish finally dare making their own spoken language their official norm.



EDIT:
t in:
dat
wat
verbforms with a voicelessly ending stem

is pronounced like a /d/ before vowels
Last edited by Grytolle on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:49 am, edited 5 times in total.
:-)

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Re: Some hints to understand Flemish

Post by Grytolle » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:26 pm

Short note before I start on the real topic
Sometimes neuter-nouns have alternating pronouns in the same way as masculine nouns:
e paard
een huis
e vrouwke
..This isn't as common as nen/ne, though


Adjective inflecition
1. In general
In de tussentaal, almost all features can either be back-tracked to Brabantic dialects (e.g. the use of ne/nen), or to Standard Dutch (e.g. pronounciation). This goes for adjectives too.

Letters within []-brackets fall away except before vowels and b, t, d, h.
Letters within ()-brackets fall away except before vowels.
-0 means "no ending"

I don't mark fall-offs with apostrophes here, because I don't have any good system for it atm

2.1 The standard inflection
This very much resembles the current AN-inflection, and even more the old accusative inflection of AN.
masculine: -e[n]
feminine, plural: -(e)
neuter: -0

Examples:
ne groten arbeidende man
een groot arbeidende vrouw
e/een groot arbeidend kind

This is used for most adjectives, and can always be used for normal adjectives.

2.1 The alternative inflection
Sometimes this is used instead of the standard inflection. This stems form het Brabants.

masculine: -e[n]
feminine, plural: -0
neuter: -0

This can happen when:
[*] ending with an l, n or r, preceded by a long vowel or diftong <- geel, vuil, bruin, schoon, duur, zwaar
[*] ending in -el or -er (including comparatives like groter, schoner)
[*] ending in ou/au
[*] ..?

I don't know how common the use of this inflection actually is.

2.2 Adjective ending in -e or -en
I don't know exactly how common this pronounciation pattern is, but it applies to adjective ending in -e/-en. Examples:
gedronken, gouden, oranje. I also don't really know a good way to write it, any way:

masculine: -e[n]
feminine, plural: -e(n)
neuter: -e(n)

nen oranjen blije man
een gedronken oranje vrouw
e gedronke gouden oranje kind

I suppose I'd prefer to write those examples:
nen oranjen blije man
een gedronken oranje vrouw
een gedronken gouden oranje kind

...that is, always writing the n in adjectives ending in -en

3. definite neuter
You might hear both:
het/dat groen kind
and:
het/dat groene kind

3. Superlative
I'm very unsure about this, but I think either one of those two paradigms are use (or mixed)
masculine: -e[n]
feminine: -(e)
neuter: -(e)

den blauwsten boom
de schoonst A-vrouw
het blijst A-kind

or:

masculine: -e[n]
feminine: -(e)
neuter: -e(n)

den blauwsten boom
de schoonst A-vrouw
het blijsten A-kind

or just like in AN, but with the addition of -n for masculine (this is also possible with the standard inflection):
masculine: -e[n]
feminine: -e
neuter: -e

den blauwsten boom
de schoonste A-vrouw
het blijste B-kind

...but colliding vowels aren't very popular :P




...Comments are extra welcome here :D

4. Irregular forms
Except of the typical AN irregulars, I know of:
laat, later, letste
...fill me in!
:-)

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kwalijkje
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Re: Some hints to understand Flemish

Post by kwalijkje » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:07 am

I see this thread has been sleeping a while. Thought I'd inject some life into it with something I stumbled upon. Not sure about it, because I've never heard the -ek myself. But it might be useful for people trying to understand Flemish.

"Flemish tends to reduplicate the 1st p. sg. pronoun when it is preceded
by the predicate verb: (Flemish) "Dat hebek ik gedaan," (Dutch) "Dat
heb ik gedaan" 'I did/have done that'; (Flemish) "Wat ruikek ik hier?",
(Dutch) "Wat ruik ik hier?" 'What do I smell here?' Reduplication is
observable also after the relative pronoun "dat": (Flemish) "het papier
dakek ik U gegeven heb," (Dutch) "het papier dat ik U gegeven heb" 'the
paper that I gave you (have given you)'."
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Lui(steren) en(is) moe(ilijk)

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