Twintig Vragen - Deel 2

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Tom
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Twintig Vragen - Deel 2

Post by Tom » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:52 pm

Dames en heren, hierbij verklaar ik dit nieuwe spel nu official begonnen.
Dames en heren, hierbij verklaar ik dit nieuwe spel nu officieel voor begonnen.
Ladies and gentlemen, I hereby declare this new game as being officially started.

De eerste hint komt in een gedicht vermomd.
The first hint comes disguised as a poem.

Soms is het een plaats,
Soms is het een ding,
Een interessante en mooie plek,
Waar ik eens naartoe ging.

I am not going to translate it until five questions go by. That is when the next clue will be given. In this way, those who use their dictionary (work a bit harder) get a bit of an advantage.

Zet ‘em op lui!
Get cracking folks!
Let’s take care of business folks!

There may be a better translation for that, but I am trying to encourage people to begin the game. A better translation would be welcome.

Tom

Blauwe = Met hulp van Marco Bedankt, Joh! \:D/
Last edited by Tom on Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:02 am

als het is een ding heeft u het tuis?
if it's a thing do you have it at home?

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Nummer 20

Post by Tom » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:41 am

Als het een ding is, heeft u het dan thuis?

Gewoonlijk niet, maar af en toe wel.
Ordinarily not, but every now and then it is.

Dus, het antwoord is NEE, omdat het zo zelden thuis is.

Tom

Blauwe = Met hulp van Marco Bedankt!
Last edited by Tom on Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Laura » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:41 pm

Sounds rather ethereal to me!

Is het een figuurlijk begrip?
Is it a metaphorical concept?

I think what I mean by that is - can you see it?
Kun je het zien?

LJ

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Nummer 19

Post by Tom » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:33 pm

Ja, het is inderdaad zichtbaar.
Yes, it is indeed visible. :shock:

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Post by Marco » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:02 pm

Again only corrections

Tom:
officieel

interessante

And I have the feeling there should be something between officieel and begonnen, I think it should be 'voor' or 'als'.

Just to have the sentence somewhat more 'oiled', say this:

Als het een ding is, heeft u het dan thuis?

That sounds 'more' Dutch. :wink:

"Guest":
see above.

Laura:
To me 'figuurlijk' is the synonym for 'abstract'. :)

So you want to say:
Is het een waarneembaar begrip?

(waarnemen - to perceive / observe)

Good job, guys! 8)

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Post by Nathalie » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:37 pm

Hallo

Als het een ding is, gebruikt je dagelijks er?
A a thing, do you use it daily?


Ik heb dan geprobeerd ;)
Well I tried ;)

Nathalie

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Nummer 18

Post by Tom » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:34 am

Als het een ding is, gebruik je het dagelijks?

Nee, zelf gebruik ik het (ding of plaats) niet dagelijks, maar af en toe wel.
No, I personally don’t use it (thing or place) daily, but every now and again I do (use it or go to it). [Thing or place]

It is difficult to answer questions when the answer is not 100% yes or no, without giving a supplemental clue! ](*,)

Tom

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Post by barbara » Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:46 am

Ik heb geen idee!
I have no clue!

Is het zowel een plaatsnaam en de naam van een ding?
Is it both a place name and the name of an object?

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Nummer 17

Post by Tom » Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:39 am

I am going to make an exception for this game.

I am not going to answer Yes or No this time, although I will still count it as a turn.

Instead I will give two examples of what I meant by being a place and a thing at the same time.

A “wall” can be both.
It is a “place” to hang pictures on or a “place” where flies congregate..
It can be a “thing” surrounding China.

A “line” can be a place you stand in. A “line” can be a thing you draw.

What I am thinking about is very common, everyone know what it is. In some ways it can be thought of as a place and used in a sentence that way. In other ways it can be thought of as being more like a thing and used in a sentence that way.

I think my poem might have given the impression that I was thinking of something really esoteric. I think the person, place or thing that is the word to be guessed, should always be very simple and reasonably universal so that as many people as possible can have an equal chance at guessing it.

Sorry if I made the initial clue confusing. I hope I am redeemed by this explanation.

Tom

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Re: Nummer 18

Post by Marco » Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:00 pm

Tom wrote:Als het een ding is, gebruik je het dan dagelijks?
Alright, I've got some explanation to do.

With philosophy you're taught about the so-called 'wetmatigheid'. ('order'/'pattern')

This 'wetmatigheid' is expressed in a so-called 'als/dan-sentence':

Als het regent, dan zijn de daken nat.
Als je een metaal verhit, dan zet het uit.

With a 'wetmatigheid' a Dutch sentence requires this 'als/dan' construction.

This is also the case when you ask a question; you want to find out if your question is a 'wetmatigheid', so you have to put 'dan' in your second part of the sentence as well:

Als het een ding is, heeft u het dan thuis?

The answer could be:
Ja, als het een ding is, dan heb ik het thuis.

And then you have the 'wetmatigheid'.

Same goes for 'Als het een ding is, gebruik je het dan dagelijks?'

I have to say that the 'dan' part is absolutely required in a question, but you can omit it in a confirming sentence:

Als het een ding is, gebruik je het dan dagelijks?

You can't omit 'dan' here since it wouldn't be / sound like a question any longer, one (or I :P ) would here a confirming sentence, namely this one:

Als het een ding is gebruik je het dagelijks.

So for a question it's absolutely necessary to use 'dan'. :)

With the 'wetmatigheid' however dan isn't really needed:

Als het regent, dan zijn de daken nat. / Als het regent zijn de daken nat.
Als het een ding is, dan gebruik je het dagelijks. / Als het een ding is gebruik je het dagelijks.

I hope I'm clear. :)

*****************
There's something about 'officieel voor begonnen' that doesn't sound correct, but I still can't determine what it exactly is. I know that 'officieel voor geopend' is definitely correct, but that has another intonation. I'll ask Wim for help since my knowledge of Dutch doesn't measure up here. :)

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If then else endif ...

Post by Tom » Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:46 pm

Hi Marco,

I think you did an excellent job explaining that.

For questions, “als” is like “if” and “dan” is like “then”. For some of the programming languages I use, an “if” without a matching “then” would give me a syntax error. So that is how I will remember that. In fact, I think it is already etched into my brain as a result of this exercise.

I probably read that before, but reading it out of context does not sink into my head for more than a few minutes. It then floats to the top and gets washed away.

In a situation like this, where:
1. believe it or not, I labored over how I was going to rephrase the original question that was asked,
2. I still got it wrong.
3. I was corrected with a clear explanation.
I can now have it sink in and get stuck.

Thanks a bunch!

Regarding “als” and “dan” in confirming statements, I will think of the “als” as having more of a flavor of “when” or “under the conditions that” or “in the case where” rather than purely the “if” question version. This is like a switch or case statement in some programming language, where you don’t necessarily need a corresponding “then” statement, depending on the language.

This way to remember it may only work for me or people who do programming in various languages. Everybody is different. The result of having it stick is the important thing.

The test will be if I make the same mistake again!

The interactive nature of this forum is a great way to learn!

For I = 1 to 100
Print “Bedankt Marco!”
Next I

Tom

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Story behind "officieel voor begonnen"

Post by Tom » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:07 am

Hoi Marco,

I remember “officieel voor geopend” being said by “Ed Raket”. I believe he was a caricature of the politician Ed Nijpels created by comedians Henk Spaan and Harry Vermeegen. Henk Spaan played Ed Raket and Harry Vermeegen played his manager.

In one of the comedy shorts, his manager had Ed go to the grand opening of a beauty parlour. There, Ed said something like “Hierbij verklaar ik deze kapsalon officieel voor geopend". He then proceeded to break a bottle of good champaign on the salon and his manager got mad at him for wasting such a good bottle of champaign. That is where I borrowed the phrase from. I then changed “geopend” to “begonnen”. I thought I would give it a shot.

This episode was about 20 years ago, but I thought these guys were so funny that I can remember some of the episodes very well. I lived in Belgium for about a year back then. Then I had about 19 years of being back in the US (no more Dutch exposure). A bit more than a year ago, I got back into Dutch because of what was available on the internet and also because I finally found a Dutch night school for adults in the state where I live.

I think my fond memories of Flanders and Holland are one of the main things that keep me motivated to learn Dutch.

Groetjes,
Tom

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Post by Marco » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:20 pm

Alright,

after a pm by Wim I can now confirm that "officieel voor begonnen" is correct.

It's the combination "verklaren voor" that makes sure there has to be 'voor' between 'officieel' and 'begonnen'. I thought it had to do with 'officieel' + something, but I was wrong.

Thanks for pointing it out, Wim! :)

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Post by barbara » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:05 am

Je hebt het ding zelden thuis.
Je wilt het graag hebben.
Het is een plaats en een ding.

:shock:

Is het iets voor wat je betaalt als je het elders bezoekt?
Is it something you pay for if you visit it somewhere else?

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