Another problem with old words

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Another problem with old words

Post by jvanroekel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:47 pm

I am banging my head against a couple more words from a 15th century Dutch text.
The first word is “dwelck”
In context it reads :
. . . als wyndruesem oft gist van bier ende diergelycken onreinichheit dwelck.

I have “modernized” this as:
. . . als wijn droesem of gist van bier en de dergelijken onreinheid ?dwelck?

And tentatively translated it as:
. . . as wine dregs or yeast from beer and the suchlike uncleanliness ?dwelck?
But that last word is killing me.

The other word that I am having trouble with is “crachtiger” which appears to have generally fallen out of modern usage.

I found a reference in the "Bibliotheca reformatoria neerlandica" 1904 which states

"maar de Heere was crachtiger (die mijnen mont bewaren)" But that did not help much. I suspect that I am up against some slang that does not translate well.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by snowball » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:52 pm

jvanroekel wrote:I am banging my head against a couple more words from a 15th century Dutch text.
The first word is “dwelck”
In context it reads :
. . . als wyndruesem oft gist van bier ende diergelycken onreinichheit dwelck.

I have “modernized” this as:
. . . als wijn droesem of gist van bier en de dergelijken onreinheid ?dwelck?

And tentatively translated it as:
. . . as wine dregs or yeast from beer and the suchlike uncleanliness ?dwelck?
But that last word is killing me.

The other word that I am having trouble with is “crachtiger” which appears to have generally fallen out of modern usage.

I found a reference in the "Bibliotheca reformatoria neerlandica" 1904 which states

"maar de Heere was crachtiger (die mijnen mont bewaren)" But that did not help much. I suspect that I am up against some slang that does not translate well.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
Dwelck is probably "dewelke" which means "van welk(e)" or just "welk(e)", I can't really place it in your sentence, but here is another example:

Een suyverlijc liedeken vol devocien, dwelck alle devote herten moghen singhen

This means something like: A pure song full of devotion, which all devoted hearts may sing.

That's what I think it means, but I'm no expert, so I might be wrong :D

Crachtiger is krachtiger. Krachtig means "powerful" and krachtiger means "more powerful" or "stronger".

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by Quetzal » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:01 pm

I think we're going to need more context in both. Neither is a full sentence, the first one in particular seems to end very abruptly, as "dewelke" is hardly a word you can ever end a sentence with. In addition, I'm not so sure that "diergelycken" is what you think it is, but it's impossible to know without more context.

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by jvanroekel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:01 pm

Thank you for all the help.

The origional text reads:

Als ghi nu wilt gaen maken den Ghebranden wyn, soo en sult ghi niet duen ghelyck vele bedrieghers doen, die daertoe nemen veelderhande dinghen daer si den wyn mede verderven ghelyck als wyndruesem oft gist van bier ende diergelycken onreinichheit dwelck (hoe wel dat de ghebranden wyn die also gemaeckt is sumtyts oock sterck sy) so ist nochtans een groot behoort ende en behoort niet ghedaen te worden.

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by Quetzal » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:39 pm

Okay, guess it is "dergelijke" after all. I'm still not sure about what "dewelke" refers to, though, as the part immediately after the brackets confuses me... oh well.

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by snowball » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:37 am

The text was confusing me as well, so I had a look at an original here.

There was an important comma missing in your transcript, just before 'dwelck'.
Also you typed 'behoort' twice in the last sentence, where the first occurence should read 'bedroch' (deceit/deception).
This sort of obfuscated the meaning for us dutchspeaking people ;)
So the last sentence should be, without the part in brackets:

dwelck so ist nochtans een groot bedroch ende en behoort niet ghedaen te worden.

I'd translate it as: "this way (the way of making brandy described before) is nonetheless a great deceit and should not be practiced".

The "dwelck so" still puzzles me a bit , literally it translates to "which so", I think, but I'm not sure.
Maybe Quetzal has an interesting opinion to add?

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by jvanroekel » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:47 pm

A great catch on the missing coma and the "behoort" vs "bedroch"/"bedrog"
Sorry about that. I usually work from a spreadsheet and rather than try to copy the text over I had re-typed it. Clearly I typed too-fast : )

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by ngonyama » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:24 am

Another problem with old words

Nieuw berichtdoor jvanroekel » maart 13th, 2012, 12:47 pm
I am banging my head against a couple more words from a 15th century Dutch text.
The first word is “dwelck”
In context it reads :
. . . als wyndruesem oft gist van bier ende diergelycken onreinichheit dwelck.

I have “modernized” this as:
. . . als wijn droesem of gist van bier en de dergelijken onreinheid ?dwelck?


A small correction: the word "ende" is simply "and", not "and the"

And yes "dwelck" is "dewelke" is "which"

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by Quetzal » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:27 pm

What I'm wondering is whether the "en" immediately after "ende" should be taken as a part of a two-word negation... I'm fairly sure I've seen that "en ... niet" construction before.

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by ngonyama » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:07 am

Oh sure Quetzal, the negation was still double: "Ick en sie niet" = Ik zie niet

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by andreengels » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:22 pm

Quetzal wrote:What I'm wondering is whether the "en" immediately after "ende" should be taken as a part of a two-word negation... I'm fairly sure I've seen that "en ... niet" construction before.
Yes, if there is "ende" and "en" in the same text, the latter is almost always part of an "en ... niet" double negation.

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by jvanroekel » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:52 pm

Thank you, that "ende en" had looked very odd to me.

I have to say, that Dutch appears to have survived with a lot less change in the last few hundred years than English has, and where it has changed, that change is in many cases far more predictable. This gives me a lot of hope : )

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by jvanroekel » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:10 pm

The sentence that I am looking at now is:

“Maer ghi sult nemen tot uwen wercke wyn die Ianck oft oncleer gheworden is, maer nochtans niet suur, want hoe sueter hys is, hoe crachtiger ende beteren wyn geven sal ende oock meer wyns gheven sal.”

I have modernized it as:

Maer ghi zult nemen tot uwen werke wijn die lanck oft onklaar geworden is, maer nochtans niet zuur want hoe zuiver het is, hoe krachtiger en de beteren wijn geven zal en de ook meer wijns geven zal.

I suspect that the “Lanck” would be “lank” for “patience” or “Slow” but that doesn’t quite scan in context with the rest. I have no idea of the “oft”

That gives me a working translation of:

“But you will take to thy genuine wine that (lanck oft onklaar geworden is) , but nevertheless not sour, because the more pure it is, how much more powerful and better brandy shall it give, and also more brandy will it give.”

I am using “Brandy” instead of “Wine” in the last two places because we are talking about the distillate.

“onklaar geworden is” I would roughly translate as “fouled become is” but without the context of “lanck oft” I am not sure.

I promise that I have been much more careful with my typing this time around : )

Thank you all again for the help on this.

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by Quetzal » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:55 pm

jvanroekel wrote:The sentence that I am looking at now is:

“Maer ghi sult nemen tot uwen wercke wyn die Ianck oft oncleer gheworden is, maer nochtans niet suur, want hoe sueter hys is, hoe crachtiger ende beteren wyn geven sal ende oock meer wyns gheven sal.”

I have modernized it as:

Maer ghi zult nemen tot uwen werke wijn die lanck oft onklaar geworden is, maer nochtans niet zuur want hoe zuiver het is, hoe krachtiger en de beteren wijn geven zal en de ook meer wijns geven zal.
I'm hoping you realize how far from modern Dutch your "modernization" is... :P A word by word modernization (which really doesn't mean the sentence as a whole makes sentence in modern Dutch) would be:

"Maar gij zult nemen tot uw werk wijn die lank of onklaar geworden is, maar nochtans niet zuur, want hoe zoeter hij is, hoe krachtiger en betere wijn geven zal en ook meer wijn geven zal."

As you can see, you're wrong on a fairly important point. "Sueter" is "zoeter" ("zuiver" isn't a comparative and therefore doesn't fit the sentence in any case; the comparative is "zuiverder"). Also, "wercke" is just "werk", not "werkelijk" as you seem to think, so it has little or nothing to do with "genuine".
jvanroekel wrote:I suspect that the “Lanck” would be “lank” for “patience” or “Slow” but that doesn’t quite scan in context with the rest. I have no idea of the “oft”

That gives me a working translation of:

“But you will take to thy genuine wine that (lanck oft onklaar geworden is) , but nevertheless not sour, because the more pure it is, how much more powerful and better brandy shall it give, and also more brandy will it give.”

I am using “Brandy” instead of “Wine” in the last two places because we are talking about the distillate.

“onklaar geworden is” I would roughly translate as “fouled become is” but without the context of “lanck oft” I am not sure.

I promise that I have been much more careful with my typing this time around : )

Thank you all again for the help on this.
I'm not sure about the "lanck". "Onklaar" would not be used in that sense anymore today, but means "murky" (in modern Dutch, "troebel"). Presumably "lanck" is something similar, considering that the "oft" is simply "of", i.e. "or".

So a more accurate working translation would be: "But you will take for your work wine that has become ? or murky, but nevertheless not sour, because the sweeter it is, the stronger and better brandy it will give, and the more brandy it will give."

"Geworden is" = "has become" - that's fairly straightforward.

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Re: Another problem with old words

Post by jvanroekel » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:11 pm

Thank you again.

I realized that my "modernization" doesn't end up as grammatically correct modern Dutch. I am just to trying to find the modern Dutch word that most closely aligns with the older text. Partly as a vocabulary exercise, and partly as a way to make the later stages of translation easier.

I have some books and CDs on Dutch that I am working my way through for the modern language, but I find building vocabulary to be tedious. Since I have a strong interest in history, and especially historical European martial arts (HEMA) working on these old translations gives an excuse to indulge my historical interests, while keeping me on-track with vocabulary.

This fall, I have a chance to get my hands on an untranslated (to my knowledge)Dutch fencing manuscript from 1595 (the Schermkunst in the Newberry in Chicago) It is not a major work, and it only contains 3 pages of text, but I would love to do a translation. I am starting on this distilling fragment to get a feel (and because I find it fascinating).

For specialized fencing vocabulary, I have a great translation (by Reinier van Noort) of Bruchius' 1671 "Scherm-ofte Wapen Konste" which should be of some help, even if it is later publication. Besides, I am familiar with the Italian and German fighting terminology, and there is a lot of sharing of terminology among the schools.

I promise that this is would not be for publication or financial gain (which would be dis-allowed by the Newberry anyhow) just for personal interest, and perhaps sharing with some like-minded friends.

I really do appreciate the help on this forum, I am sure that I would be able to puzzle this out eventually, but as I get used to the vocabulary, your help has been invaluable.

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