Syllables

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Syllables

Post by duchess » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:09 pm

How would you chop this word into syllables and why (which syllable rules would you use)!?
dopinginstanties

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Re: Syllables

Post by edufuga » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:05 pm

Well, I'll give it a try... :D

If I were you, I would read what Dutchgrammar has to say on Spelling and Pronunciation, specially the 4 syllable rules.

According to these rules I think it should be
do-ping-in-stan-ties

The important rules here are "If vowels are separated by more than one consonant, the first syllable gets one consonant, the second the rest", and "We split the compound word" (doping & instanties).

Anyway, you can check it at Woordenlijst.org and see If you've got it right!

Hope that this helps.

Groetjes!

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Re: Syllables

Post by duchess » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:19 pm

I've read Spelling and Pronunciation and I've chosen some words from the newspaper. I just got this one wrong and I didn't know where I was making a mistake.

I've got it now! Based on the 4th rule, I thought we shouldn't divide the first word. So I did it like this
doping-in-stan-ties
But I understand now! Thank you so much edufuga!


Btw is the forth rule only for these combinations: rts, mbt, lfts or rwt?

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Re: Syllables

Post by Grytolle » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:46 pm

I'd pronounce it like:

do pin gin stan ties

ng shouldn't really be split I guess, but I do it anyway because of being Swedish :(
:-)

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Re: Syllables

Post by Joke » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:26 pm

Grytolle wrote:ng shouldn't really be split I guess, but I do it anyway because of being Swedish :(
That's true, ng is one sound, like in English. The g is not pronounced seperately.

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Re: Syllables

Post by Grytolle » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:32 pm

I still pronounce it like one sound :) Swedish is weird :D I simply initiate the consonant before the end of the first syllable, then finishes it at the begin of the other part.
:-)

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Re: Syllables

Post by edufuga » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:41 pm

duchess wrote:Btw is the forth rule only for these combinations: rts, mbt, lfts or rwt?
I don't know, and I would also like to...
Good question!

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Re: Syllables

Post by Sullivan » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:13 pm

No not exclusively I wouldn't think...
In general, they consider combinations like rts, mbt, lfts or rwt hard to pronounce
This says that rts, mbt, lfts or rwt are examples of difficult-to-pronounce combinations.

I can't think of any others off the top of my head. If I do manage to think of anything I'll post it.

I find the examples pretty straightforward, with the exception of erwten. It's that w in the middle - my brain tries instinctively to fit an English w sound in there instead of a Dutch w. ( [-X )
Dat is te flauw voor ons.

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Post by Joke » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:42 pm

edufuga wrote:
duchess wrote:Btw is the forth rule only for these combinations: rts, mbt, lfts or rwt?
I don't know, and I would also like to...
Good question!
There are more difficult combinations. The only one I can think of right now is rfst in herfstig (herf-stig, not her-fstig, autumnal), but I'm pretty sure that there are many more.
I find the examples pretty straightforward, with the exception of erwten. It's that w in the middle - my brain tries instinctively to fit an English w sound in there instead of a Dutch w.
The 'w' in erwten is not pronounced. We just say 'erten'.

Joke

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Re: Syllables

Post by Bieneke » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:12 pm

edufuga wrote:Well, I'll give it a try... :D

If I were you, I would read what Dutchgrammar has to say on Spelling and Pronunciation, specially the 4 syllable rules.

According to these rules I think it should be
do-ping-in-stan-ties

The important rules here are "If vowels are separated by more than one consonant, the first syllable gets one consonant, the second the rest", and "We split the compound word" (doping & instanties).

Anyway, you can check it at Woordenlijst.org and see If you've got it right!

Hope that this helps.

Groetjes!
Excellent!
edufuga wrote:
duchess wrote:Btw is the forth rule only for these combinations: rts, mbt, lfts or rwt?
I don't know, and I would also like to...
Good question!
I knew this question would be asked some day. :-)

The phonetics of the Dutch language (or of any language) is quite a complicated topic, but I will try to give a brief outline.

To understand what Dutch speakers find difficult to pronounce, we will divide the Dutch consonants into a few phonetic categories:

1. Plosive sounds: b, d (voiced) and k, p, t (unvoiced)
2. Fricative sounds: g, v, z (voiced) and ch, f,s (unvoiced)
3. Nasal sounds: m, n
4. Liquid sounds: l, r
5. Gliding sounds: j, w

I left a few consonants out: The letter 'h' is sometimes considered a fricative, but it is a special case. The letter 'c' is either pronounced as fricative 's' or plosive 'k'; 'qu' ('q' never occurs alone in Dutch) is a combination of plosive 'k' and gliding 'w', and 'x' consists of a plosive 'k' and a fricative 's'. When we use 'y' as a consonant, we pronounce it the same as gliding 'j'. Furthermore, there are combinations of letters that we could add to the above categories; if you like, we could discuss these later.

What Dutch speakers (generally) find difficult to pronounce:
  1. Dutch speakers find it difficult to pronounce a nasal (n, m), liquid (l, r), or gliding (j, w) consonant + another consonant.

    This means that if a word (or syllable) begins with m, n, l, r, j, or w, it cannot be followed by another consonant. The letter w is an exception; it is sometimes followed by 'r': Wrat (wart), wreed (cruel), wraak (revenge). However, when followed by 'r', we pronounce 'w' more like 'v' ('vrat', 'vreed', and 'vraak').
  2. Plosives and fricatives can generally be followed by liquid or gliding consonants, but not by other plosives or fricatives.

    Plosive plus liquid (l, r) sound: blauw (blue), bruin (brown), de draai (the turn), de klauw (the claw), het krijt (the chalk), de pleister (the plaster), praten (to talk), de trui (the pullover). -> 'dl' and 'tl' are not possible

    Fricative + liquid (l, r) sound: glad (smooth), grijs (grey), de vlek (the stain), de vrouw (the woman), het chloor (the chlorid), het chroom (the chrome), fluiten (to whistle), fraai (beautiful), sluiten (to close). -> 'Sr' is uncommon and we generally do not combine 'z' with another consonant.

    Plosive plus gliding (j, w) sound: de dweil (the mop), het kwartier (the quarter), twaalf (twelve).
    Although there are not many Dutch words beginning with kj, pj, or tj, the diminutive endings -kje, -pje, and -tje, can constitute separate syllables (which means we do not find them difficult to pronounce).

    Fricative + gliding (j, w) sound: The only common combination is 'zw': zwaan (swan), zwaar (heavy), zwak (weak).
  3. The letter 's' is the most resilient letter of all consonants; it is the only consonant that:
    • can be followed by a plosive (always unvoiced): sk, sp, and st are all possible. E.g. skiën (to ski), het spel (the game), de stad (the city).
    • is often ocombined with the voiceless fricative 'ch': de schoen (the shoe), de schaar (the scissors), schuiven (to shove)
    • can be followed by the voiceless fricative 'f': de sfeer (sphere, atmosphere)
    • is generally the only consonant that precedes a nasal sound (m or n): smal (narrow), snel (fast)
    The only other letter which commonly occurs before the letter 'n' (not 'm') is the plosive 'k': de knie (the knee), de knal (the bang). There are other consonants that can precede 'm' or 'n', but they rarely do. Examples are pneumatisch (pneumatic), de gnoe (the gnu, wildebeast), or fnuikend (desastrous, fatal)
  4. Less common: The plosives ‘p’ and ‘t’ can be followed by the voiceless fricative 's': psycholoog (psychologist), pseudoniem, tsaar (czar)
I know that several of our forum members are linguists (or studying linguistics) so perhaps any of the experts would like to shed a (brighter ;-)) light on this topic.

Groetjes,
Bieneke

[Edit] This topic is about dividing a word into syllables. The topic about pronunciation continues here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1710[/edit]
Last edited by Bieneke on Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: I splitted the topic; new topic (about pronunciation): http://www.dutchgrammar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1710
Bieneke

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Re: Syllables

Post by Bieneke » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:14 pm

I wrote in my (original) previous post that fricative + gliding sound is uncommon in Dutch, but Joke reminded me of the combination 'zw' , which is in fact quite common. I added examples of (fricative + gliding) 'zw' to my previous post.
Bieneke

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Re: Syllables

Post by Grytolle » Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:35 pm

As far as I know, a short vowel is never followed by a z, except in words like "iz" (unfortunately spelled "is")
:-)

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Post by Joke » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:40 pm

Grytolle wrote:As far as I know, a short vowel is never followed by a z
That's true. Words, and also syllables, never end in z or v. Since a short vowel can only occur in a syllable that ends in a consonant, short vowels are never followed by z or v.

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Re:

Post by Grytolle » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:35 pm

Joke wrote:syllables, never end in z or v.
They do, but there is some stupid spelling rule forbidding it :) That doesn't change that a short vowel very seldom is followed by a z within a word, though
:-)

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Re: Syllables

Post by dirkmath » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:05 am

Er zijn wel een aantal woorden waarin een lettergreep op z eindigt, al zijn ze uiteindelijk alle leenwoorden (There are some words in which a syllable ends on z, even though they all have a foreign origin):
  • puzzel
    razzia
    pizza
Het woordje jazz is niet echt een probleem vermits het slechts één lettergreep telt (the word jazz is no problem as it only has one syllable).

Als er iemand nog andere weet?
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