nouns from verbs?

[kota_solo]

Hi,
I need help with these (in color):
"....veel parmantig gewoel, gewaggel en getuimel, met niemand die zich daarboven verhief...."
It seems to me they're nouns, but I couldn't find their meaning in my dictionary or any online dictionary. Instead, I googled this:
"Wat ik niet wil is dat er allerlei getuimel en gedoe en geschuif komt op...."
Do they come from waggelen, tuimelen [i]and schuiven[/i]? But how they come in that form?
Groetjes.

[JazzedPotato]

Hi,
I need help with these (in color):
"....veel parmantig gewoel, gewaggel en getuimel, met niemand die zich daarboven verhief...."
It seems to me they're nouns, but I couldn't find their meaning in my dictionary or any online dictionary. Instead, I googled this:
"Wat ik niet wil is dat er allerlei getuimel en gedoe en geschuif komt op...."
Do they come from waggelen, tuimelen [i]and schuiven[/i]? But how they come in that form?
Groetjes.

Hi kota_solo.
You are correct in assuming that these are indeed nouns ('gewoel', 'gewaggel', 'getuimel' & 'geschuif' that is).
You are also correct in the assumption that these are derived from the verbs 'waggelen' (to waddle), tuimelen (to tumble/trip up) and 'schuiven' (to shove).

It's the same as for instance the verb 'schreeuwen' is turned into the noun 'geschreeuw'. Basically it's the equivalent of the English noun on an -ing form, only we use ge + stem (1st person). .

A lot of yelling --- Veel geschreeuw -- ge + schreeuw ('schreeuwen' - en)
A lot of whining/moaning --- Een hoop gezeur --- ge + zeur ('zeuren' -en).
There was begging -- (for money:) Er was gebedel --- ge + bedel ('bedelen' -en or: Er was gesmeek ---ge + smeek (smeken- stem: 'smeek')

Some of these nouns are very frequently used such as 'gedoe', 'gehoor', 'geschenk' etc.


Hope this has clarified matters for you somewhat.

Groetjes/ regards,

- Jazzed -

[Grytolle]

ge- mostly has a negative connotation... gescheeuw is not just screaming, it's annoying screaming or sth like that

the equivalent of the english -ing is either "de ~ing" (feminine), or "het ~en" or more rarely "de ~" (masculine), ~ being a verb stem

[kota_solo]

Hoi,
Thanks Jazzed and Grytolle. Valuable input. I think I got the point. Dank je.

Groetjes.

[JazzedPotato]

ge- mostly has a negative connotation... geschreeuw is not just screaming, it's annoying screaming or sth like that

I didn't know there was positive screaming also..
You learn something everyday..

'Geschenk', 'geknuffel', 'geaai',' gestreel' , 'gezoen'... Those are not necessarily that negative are they?

Hoi,
Thanks Jazzed and Grytolle. Valuable input. I think I got the point. Dank je.

Groetjes.

You're welcome.

[Grytolle]

'Geschenk'

heeft idd een hele andere betekenis

'geknuffel', 'geaai',' gestreel' , 'gezoen'... Those are not necessarily that negative are they?

I might be wrong, but they sound more so than "knuffel, aai, streel, zoen"

[JazzedPotato]

I might be wrong, but they sound more so than "knuffel, aai, streel, zoen"

I don't think so, necessarily.

For instance:
' Er was veel geknuffel toen de zussen elkaar na tien jaar eindelijk weer zagen' .
' Hij was een tedere minnaar die van veel gestreel en gezoen hield'.

It all depends on the context in which the words are places, how they are interpreted imho.

' De zanger werd opgezweept door het enthousiaste gejuich, geschreeuw en gejoel van zijn fans'.
' Wil je alsjeblieft ophouden met dat irritante, luide geschreeuw van je?!'

[kota_solo]

To: Jazzed I should have added this question in my post before: What's your take on Grytolle's post about nouns from stem+ing etc.? If that's so, what's the difference then (with ge+stem)? Seeing you're still arguing with Grytolle about the negative connotation of ge+stem, it looks to me as if there's no clear-cut rule on the matter. Groetjes.

[JazzedPotato]

To: Jazzed I should have added this question in my post before: What's your take on Grytolle's post about nouns from stem+ing etc.? If that's so, what's the difference then (with ge+stem)? Seeing you're still arguing with Grytolle about the negative connotation of ge+stem, it came to my mind that there's no clear-cut rule on the matter. Groetjes.

Hmm well don't get me wrong please , but I don't think 'arguing' is the right term.. There is such a thing as personal use of a language, and personally I don't perceive the mild negative connotation so much in these words - which is not to say other people might not agree. I can see how this can be interpreted as such though, but as said I personally (emphasizing this to be my personal opinion and usage of the language ) would not consider this difference to be so strong but rather dependent on the context and way it is used.
Also obviously it depends on the verbs you use. 'Schreeuwen' - to scream /yell is not necessarily a word that would be used very positively frequently, so it more or less inherently may carry a negative connotation.

I think the rules Grytolle described are probably accurate in terms of how these words are formed (answering your question on this in the broader sense). However I might add that I percieve there to be a slight difference in use between 'het + verb' as a noun and 'ge + stem' as a noun. For instance:

' Roken is slecht voor je' -- 'Smoking is bad for you'.
' Ik had last van mijn ogen door het vele gerook in de kleine ruimte' - ' My eyes were hurting because of all the smoking in the small space'.

' Schreeuwen is onbeleefd' -- ' Screaming/Yelling is impolite'.
' Ik kon niets verstaan door al dat geschreeuw' -- ' I couldn't hear anything because of all that screaming/yelling'.

In both cases you can use the 'ing' form in English, but there is a difference in the use of this in Dutch. 'Het roken'/Roken or ' Schreeuwen/ Het schreeuwen' are used more or less as abstract concepts in these sentences , whereas, 'het gerook' and 'het geschreeuw' tend to pertain to a specific kind more concretely present and happening at that specific moment, interfering with things or playing an active role.

So indeed both can be translated by 'ing' in this sense, but can be used rather differently in Dutch.

[kota_solo]

To: Jazzed
You have been a great help. Dank je.
Groetjes

NB: are you still around Grytolle? It would be nice if you could chip in for second opinion.

[Grytolle]

I can't really say much I'm Swedish. I know from an MSN-conversation with Jaspatat though that she does agree that certain construction(s) demands the use of ge-, and does hold a negative connotation, namely:

dat ge[ww-stam] van [iemand]

Furthermore, Vandale agrees with me, sort of:

als voorvoegsel voor werkwoordsstammen ter vorming van zn. ter aanduiding van een voortdurende of een telkens herhaalde (en daardoor min of meer als vervelend ervaren) werking die door het ww. wordt uitgedrukt (deze zn. hebben geen meervoudsvorm)

wat "voorbeeldgegeef" (:D):
geaarzel, gebabbel, gebazel, gebedel, gebeier, gebengel, gebeul, gebeuzel, geblaas, geblaat, geblok, gebluf, gedans, gedram, gedweep, geëikel, geëmmer, geëtter, gefluister, gefluit, gegap, gegons, gegrien, gegrom, gehak, gehakkel, gehossebos, gejakker, gejammer, gejank, gejeuk, gejoel, gekanker, gekeuvel, gekietel, geklets, geklim, geklots, geknor, gekoeter, gekoeterwaal, gekonkelfoes, gekras, gekrol, gekruimel, gekus, gekweel, gekwetter, gekwijl, geleuter, gelobby, geloei, gelummel, gemetsel, gemok, gemopper, gemor, geneurie, genood, gepel, gepieker, geprik, gepronk, gepruil, geren, gerijm, gerikketik, gerinkel, geroddel, geronk, geros, geruzie, gesar, gescharrel, gescherm, geschipper, geschok, geschop, geschuifel, gesjouw, gesmijt, gesmokkel, gesnater, gesnauw, gesnik, gesnuif, gesputter, gestamel, gesteun, gestoot, gestotter, gesukkel, getalm, getier, getob, getokkel, getrappel, getreiter, getreuzel, getrommel, getuf, getwijfel, getwist, gewauwel, geweeklaag, gewiebel, gewurm, gezanik

Basically it says that ge- means that the action is repeated, which in most cases is perceived as annoying.

[JazzedPotato]

I can't really say much I'm Swedish. I know from an MSN-conversation with Jaspatat though that she does agree that certain construction(s) demands the use of ge-, and does hold a negative connotation, namely:

dat ge[ww-stam] van [iemand]

True. For instance:
'Dat gedoe van jou..'; ' Dat gezeur van jou...'; ' Dat gedraal van hem moet eens afgelopen zijn'; ' Dat gejengel van Benjamin is heel irritant' .. etc.

Furthermore, Vandale agrees with me, sort of:

als voorvoegsel voor werkwoordsstammen ter vorming van zn. ter aanduiding van een voortdurende of een telkens herhaalde (en daardoor min of meer als vervelend ervaren) werking die door het ww. wordt uitgedrukt (deze zn. hebben geen meervoudsvorm)

wat "voorbeeldgegeef" (:D):
geaarzel, gebabbel, gebazel, gebedel, gebeier, gebengel, gebeul, gebeuzel, geblaas, geblaat, geblok, gebluf, gedans, gedram, gedweep, geëikel, geëmmer, geëtter, gefluister, gefluit, gegap, gegons, gegrien, gegrom, gehak, gehakkel, gehossebos, gejakker, gejammer, gejank, gejeuk, gejoel, gekanker, gekeuvel, gekietel, geklets, geklim, geklots, geknor, gekoeter, gekoeterwaal, gekonkelfoes, gekras, gekrol, gekruimel, gekus, gekweel, gekwetter, gekwijl, geleuter, gelobby, geloei, gelummel, gemetsel, gemok, gemopper, gemor, geneurie, genood, gepel, gepieker, geprik, gepronk, gepruil, geren, gerijm, gerikketik, gerinkel, geroddel, geronk, geros, geruzie, gesar, gescharrel, gescherm, geschipper, geschok, geschop, geschuifel, gesjouw, gesmijt, gesmokkel, gesnater, gesnauw, gesnik, gesnuif, gesputter, gestamel, gesteun, gestoot, gestotter, gesukkel, getalm, getier, getob, getokkel, getrappel, getreiter, getreuzel, getrommel, getuf, getwijfel, getwist, gewauwel, geweeklaag, gewiebel, gewurm, gezanik

Basically it says that ge- means that the action is repeated, which in most cases is perceived as annoying.

Well in some cases yes, but not always (I mean 'geschreeuw' could be for instance insistant noise, repetitive, but needs not be. )

But in the case where it does imply the repitition (and in many of the above mentioned verbs it does) I would concur that it might be perceived as somewhat annoying or negative due to this fact.
(Bearing in mind that many of the verbs are not so positively charged to begin with, such as e.g. 'roddelen', 'tobben', 'treiteren', 'treuzelen','twisten', 'zaniken' , 'kwijlen', 'leuteren', 'pruilen', 'kankeren' , 'snauwen' , ' snateren' , 'mokken' , 'drammen' , 'emmeren', 'etteren' , 'dwepen' , 'lummelen' , 'wauwelen' , 'kwelen' etc. Meaning they would not be charged very positively in the 'het + infinitive' version of the noun either. )

By the way I don't think I have ever come across 'gehossebos', ' gekonkelfoes', 'gekoeter' or 'gekoeterwaal' .. I know 'koeterwaals' but hardly anyone -of my generation anyway- uses it here.

koe·ter·waals het; o gebrekkige taal; brabbeltaal
http://www.vandale.nl/vandale/opzoeken/ ... oeterwaals

[falcybe]

ge- mostly has a negative connotation... gescheeuw is not just screaming, it's annoying screaming or sth like that

the equivalent of the english -ing is either "de ~ing" (feminine), or "het ~en" or more rarely "de ~" (masculine), ~ being a verb stem

It is very interesting reading this "argument", "discussion", "conversation" in "English" between non-English people. It reminds me in part of an erstwhile Belgian, French-speaking, colleague who said that he and all his fellow French speakers understood English perfectly, until an English person started speaking
Take just the word scream, in English it means to voice a sudden loud piercing cry, esp. in alarm, terror, or pain. So when an English person hears an American say "he screamed at me", that grates tremendously. "He yelled at me" yes, "he shouted at me", yes; "he screamed [out in pain]" yes but "to scream" is intransitive so he did not scream (sthg) at me, NO. Then again, positive or negative? He screamed, talking English, not American, can be very positive for by screaming he warned his family and or friends of some danger so they were able to protect themselves. Positive or negative is a very subjective idea. Language itself, a tool invented by vocal beings (whether human, apoid, birdlike or other) to expess their thoughts is very subjective. Take the phrase "it is a long time since I haven't been to London" which means the exact opposite, grammatically speaking. I use the positive (have been) way of talking in my English, my mother uses the negative way. Francophones I talk to have to think about it, then immediately dismiss my logical way as being too odd. Thirty years ago, English people in the West Country talked an English more akin to the way Shakespeare talked, at least those in villages. People in Newcastle, NE England talk a dialect understandable to inhabitants of North Holland, who Limburg people think talk Double Dutch or chinois as the French say. Other English people haven't a clue what Newcies (hard c) are saying.

To round up my posting, I often see on the internet people writing such and such is English and I think, hmm, which small corner of the country do they come from, the Bronx perhaps? And to really round up my posting, much of what is modern American is 17th/18th c. English.

Groetjes (wel dit is een Nederlands forum!)
Arthur

[ngonyama]

In English the -ing gerund is a very dominant verbal noun. Naamwoord van handeling or nomen actionis are the only terms I know for it. Dutch has a whole bunch of forms of which the neuter ge+stem is only one.

Others are:

Old forms with ablaut like

binden - band
geven - gave
graven - groeve

Forms with -t

varen - vaart
geven - gift
graven - gracht <(graft)
Forms with -nis

ergeren - ergernis
begraven - begrafenis

Forms with -ing

ingeven - ingeving

etc. etc. I have never seen any attempt at a systematic description though. I think the ones with -ing are probably the youngest ones but I really dont know

[Grytolle]

Old forms with ablaut like

binden - band
geven - gave
graven - groeve

Improductive for sure. I also suspect that they aren't historically formed the same way

Forms with -t

varen - vaart
geven - gift
graven - gracht <(graft)
Forms with -nis

Definitely improductive. Often have older forms with -e

-(t)(e)nis

ergeren - ergernis
begraven - begrafenis

Probably improductive too

Forms with -ing
ingeven - ingeving

etc. etc. I have never seen any attempt at a systematic description though. I think the ones with -ing are probably the youngest ones but I really dont know

Those one's are definitely the youngest